Hey! I'm serious! I am actually traumatised by it!!


...well, maybe that's a bit strong--but it was truly dreadful and made worse by the fact that I couldn't really see what it was and enlarged it.

Sorry, getreal, I seem to be upsetting everyone this evening.

No worries! I think I'll survive.

Hey, stop worrying. Just be aware that some (*cough* *cough* like me) argue back. And strongly.



As far as I can see, most Muslims just want to get on with life as best they can, just like atheists or Christians.



Rwanda. Religion was not a factor. And country is Christian or animist.

In any case, Islamist terrorism already hit Africa. The bombing in Nairobi, etc.



Yes, in the end. In the meantime, we all are involved.



In the computer game Rome: Total War, naked warriors often exist, but always wear loincloths.




What, Andy Roddick naked? A bad sight to be sure.




They all say that.

I did not mean that Bin Laden would convert to another religion, I meant that he could become the prophet of his present religion.


Your assumption is unrealistic because a politician would never ever say " exploit poor people to our benefit" the phrase would just backfire!
Choice "a" is somehow happening in several western countries.
My opinion briefly is:
Globalization is wrong in the way it has been brought forwards as uniting production in Countries with wide difference in purchasing power leads to conflict (hopefully peaceful) and economic shock. Western Countries have just now started to perceive this - just perceiving!
Long term damage will be substantial.

Dave, I totally understand what you are saying and I probably would have agreed to that viewpoint too back in 2003-04. But we need to understand that it is us, the world citizens who want to ensure peace comes back and things improve in the Islamic world. However, we world citizens do not have control over what and how it is done. The control lies with our governments. And our governments are least bothered about us and our views. They are telling us that they want to set things right but they are there to maintain status quo. How long will we trust these people in power when day in day out they keep lying in our faces?

Secondly, forget about your "moral" duty to set things right. Lotsa people in the west feel it is now a moral duty to bring back Iraq and Afghanistan to stability since their governments destroyed them. That, my friend, is an illusion. No one can set right their societies and their countries except they themselves. Let us consider helping them with what they ask for not what we think us good for them. Remember life existed rather peacefully for millenia before our armies went their and raped those places brutally. This attitude of our society being a moral one is the horn. No one is more right or more wrong...no moral is better than any other moral. All of them change in space, time, perspective, and context. Let us not become so intolerant to others' morals that we think our morals need to be implemented everywhere. That is where I don't see a difference in Humanism and the Abrahamic religions. both parties claim they are right, their ways are better, they are more rational, they "know" the right things and the right ways to do things. Every damn thing is viewed as us v/s them. why can't we just live and let live. Why poke our noses in every culture's ways and start pronouncing moral judgments. Why can't we curb this fucking itch to judge every society, every culture, every country? Why can't we shut up and mind our own business? Why? Why? Why? Why?

We must acknowledge and accept our mistakes. We must brace ourselves for some payback from them. But we must also ensure that this time around we will tolerate a few of their frustration-venting attacks. Otherwise the vicious cycle will NEVER break. Someone needs to break the cycle. If we want to own up responsibility for the mess then we must be the ones choosing to break the cycle.

I find 2 options to "end" this conflict once and for all:
a. Long term option - Get out of there immediately, isolate ourselves from them (for defending ourselves...defense does not mean we have to go crap in the enemy's land) for a period of time. Brace ourselves for a few attacks from them...let the frustration heal naturally...it will heal!
b. Short term option - Start afresh. Wipe the place clean, finish off Islam once and for all...no more reconciliation nothing. Annihilate them, and annihilate our guys that deserve to be treated the same and start humanity a fresh.

Gurdur, I think you misunderstood my reference to, a new human being will come out of all this mess. Did you interpret it as if some messiah was on the way? Anyway, what I meant was that our civilization will change in its core values for sure immaterial of whether this mess is resolved violently or non-violently. And that the "new" humankind will be a much more tolerant one.

Last to last night I was watching this movie, The Day The Earth Stood Still. There's this scene where Keanu Reeves is telling Monty Python (is that his name..the guy from Fawlty Towers?) that they came here to destroy humanity to save the Earth. Monty Python's character tells him something on these lines - "give us another chance, we will change. It is exactly under such dire circumstances when our existence itself is threatened that we find the will and determination to change ourselves, our ways, our cultures. Out of the most grave situations arise the most amazing transformations"

You think wrongly.



I am here.

How many times must I point this out?



Utopia is like the revolution, always only a T-shirt away.



You should see my fridge. It needs, ah, me to transform and do some tac nuking.

Is that really true? That's news to me. Are you sure this is attributed to Jesus himself saying it? Very surprising...coz Jesus himself was like a Buddha

Hey, what is tac nuking...never heard of that term

He didn't actually say to go sell your clothes and buy a sword, but he did say to go sell your clothes and give the money to the poor.

On the other hand, Jesus did say:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34



Use of tactical nuclear weapons.

Oh I think you interpreted 'born again' as that sect in christinaity - born again christians. I meant born again with reference to them claiming Jesus came back to life after he was dead

Thank you for answering. FWIW, my reaction considering the fact that I live in India and hence cannot answer as a person living in the west so I'll not have experienced the daily life of USA/UK..
I will not be ready to agree to cutting back on my comforts, and my salary. I will not get myself worked up too much about working conditions of ppl who work in factories. What I will do though, is to ensure that what I earn is also used for assisting how many ever people I can (given my earnings and savings). Of course I am referring to the underprivileged people.

I had decided early in life that I'll not add to the count of viruses on this Earth..if I wanna be a father I'll adopt. And that I will educate 3-4 kids thru out their academic life and I will do it actively, meaning I will not just send money to some NGO but I will be like a mentor to those kids myself. Those kids could be the kids of my parents' maid servant or the construction worker who temporarily lives at the site next to my house for constructing a house there. So far I have been doing for 3 kids. I think I can do 3 more if I live till 45-50...I think I'll earn enough money. And you know the greatest joy of my life was last month...there was this office boy at a company I used to work with back in 2003. He didn't know English so he would not even get the job of a security personnel easily. I helped him learn English and then I was lucky to be there for him when he needed funds, or some direction, or even just be there for him to give him hope. You know he has his own small company now!!!!! He has opened up a courier service and although his revenue is like about Rs 100,000/- per month (when he was an office boy he earned Rs 1,800 per month), he has made it in life. He will be able to afford his children's education. In fact he paid for his younger brother's Engineering College. Man, I must tell you the contentment you feel with life when you can become a small instrument to help someone's life become better, that's what we live for. I am so proud of him. He recently got married too.

Yep, but I'll be against my government if they suggested that I forgo my comforts and luxuries. My philosophy is that I was lucky to be born into a family that could afford a good education for me and provide me a decent standard of living, so I will ensure that I will help at least one person who was not as lucky as me. And of course I will hope that that boy/girl when they grow up they will also do the same for some other underprivileged family But, no to the government's idea...I am clear.

You are a nice kind-hearted individual Nirvanam
Just a little clarification on governments reducing benefits in times of crisis:
This is not applied horizontally on all individuals; benefits are reduced proportionally and progressively according to the level of the individual remuneration. The poor is unaffected, the average earner gives something and the very rich a fair good chunk, at least this happen or should happen within participative democracies.

There is that aspect, Gurdur. People in a chaotic or anarchic state often look back at the, possibly repressive, regime that went before. There seemed to be (possibly still is) a lot of nostalgia for the Communist regime in Russia - it may have had its problems so far as life was concerned, but many remember it as a time when jobs were provided as a matter of government policy. It did not matter that the jobs were often just "make work" and achieved little, they occupied the people and provided at least some income.

I have seen accounts that the ordinary Afghani farmer would be happy to see the Taliban back in control if that meant they could get on with their job. Is part of our problem that many of these farmers grow poppies for the Taliban to export?

True, tribal conflicts are also something that plagues Africa, and I think Rwanda was more of a case of this than of religion. Tribal loyalties are often stronger than religious ones, even in Iraq and Afghanistan. I should have said, "the spread of Islam in Africa". The Kampala bomb was claimed by a Somali Islamic group. Was this merely a retaliatory act or will it be the first move in the Islamisation of Uganda? Nigeria is half Islamic and they have made moves to strengthen their position in that country.

Trying to check on the growth of Islam on the web shows conflicting figures - you can choose those that suit your argument! But Islam seems to be at least a close second to Christianity.

I may be too concerned about radical Islam, but there yer go. Someone said to me that it could not be as bad as the Cold War, but then there was a set of "rules" that all stuck to and (as evidence seems to be indicating) the Russians were just as worried as the west. Even with the Cuba missiles crisis (and I was one of those confined to barracks during that) there were rules that governed the actions of the opponents. With Islam we have a very different mindset, one that takes little account of diplomatic niceties, does not "play the game".

Even as a humanist I still feel the need to defend my country, even if that means taking action that ends with the death of those attacking it.

[Laptops are a good thing! Had a power failure near the end of that and didn't lose anything!]

Thanks for your kind words, peneasy. I am a bit embarrassed but I'll ensure my feet stay grounded by acknowledging the fact that I will change in space, time, perspective, context. If that doesn't help I can always remind myself I have a suitable "admirer" in Alan C to keep me grounded...lol!

I understand what you are saying about the income brackets and services. I have a question...in UK are people generally disciplined and dutiful in paying their taxes? In India sadly we are not. The employed middle class especially employed by the more tech-savvy ones are generally good citizens when it comes to Income Tax that is because normally our organizations will have a tie up with a financial services firm for payroll mgmt so those vendors also take care of ensuring good tax planning. So our taxes get paid at source itself.

When it comes to the poor, voluntarily doing it is kinda expected that it won't happen. But voluntary tax payment is rare when it comes to the ultra rich and self employed middle class and middle class traders and businessmen. Hence there is too much black money. The top bracket is taxed 30%...the income of the top bracket actually is equal to the slightly above mid-middle class. An annual income of less than Rs1.5 lacs (abt 1,600 pounds) are not taxed. Then 1.5 - 2.5 are taxed 10%, 2.5 to 4 are taxed 20% 4 to 7 are taxed 25% and 7+ are taxed 30%. The problem is, the rich actually earn like a minimum of 50 lacs per annum. So they would end up paying 15 lacs (twice more than min income for top tier taxing) which hurts their ego and somehow makes ppl try to evade or show losses, etc. Hence the collection from taxes for the Revenue Dept is always way below what it should be.

Here is where I feel that if our government changed tax policy to something where the max is not 30% but around 15 to 20 then automatically ppl will not mind so much when their hard earned money is basically being "stolen" by the government (u see for the rich they anyway live in an environment where all comforts are there so the real infrastructure and development not happening because of corruption affects the middle class and poor). Now, by reducing the amount that the government "steals" from the rich, the rich themselves will not mind paying taxes honestly and dutifully. I believe that the natural tendency of every human is towards honesty and integrity but it is when being honest actually becomes not just non-helpful but actually harmful that humans tend to deviate towards by-passing honesty.

I can draw a kinda parallel to this in what my dad told me when I was still a teen. Dad is an avid stock market investor and I was learning from him about the game. He told me something like, "when you start investing in stocks and shares, what will hurt you more is not when you incur a loss because the shares you purchased were not a good decision, but when you realize you could have made more profit had you made the decision to sell at a different time." Its like the "real" money slipping out of your hand does not hurt as much as the imaginary money that could have come into your hands. I actually experienced it when I started playing the game but somehow I am managing to ensure that money never rises above 5th place in my life's priorities for a stretch of more than 6 months at any time. So far so good...touch wood!

A friend of mine always says this (in Hindi but it translates well in English too): "Money is not everything in life, but without money there isn't anything." And I am trying to pull off this heist: "Money is definitely something in life, but without money nothing much is lost/ not everything is lost"..lol!

Nirvanam wrote "Thanks for your kind words, peneasy. I am a bit embarrassed but I'll ensure my feet stay grounded by acknowledging the fact that I will change in space, time, perspective, context...."
I cannot see why you should feel embarrassed? Changing own individual character in life is quite normal and intelligent; can you imagine someone in his 40ies having the same character of a youth? It would be weird and bizarre! Evolving entails changing one's character, behaviour and feelings.

One little note: I am based in Italy, retired and I know the UK well; I was a financial analyst which means I know the trading mechanism.

Taxation: The countries where taxation is heavier and, nevertheless, tax evasion is lower are the Scandinavian republics (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark). Top rate there is slightly above 50% BUT social services are very good.
The UK suffer a medium rate of evasion, rates are reasonable (AlanC can be more precise here); I know that the average real corporates' rate is 28%.
Southern European countries are less prone to declare the truth; top rate in Italy is 45% but evasion sails at around 40%...which is shameful. Social services in Italy vary from GOOD in the north to POOR in the south (mostly due to a cultural problem, i.e. people overplay).

Share trading: I am for long term investment - in the sense that I don't like to play with price variations. This may be due to my business culture whereby I look deep into the company, their investments, their potential and their accounts. I rarely earn much but I would not loose much.

Peneasy, my reference to embarrassment was with regards to your compliment. As far as changes is concerned, o well I am a living, breathing change machine. I am always acknowledging that nothing is more permanent than change which actually helps me in not judging people (my opinions maybe strong but I rarely judge people for their morality and ethics)...in fact my personality itself is such that I get bored too soon...lol

Exactly. In fact one of my friends was in Finland for some time and he said the taxes there were 60% almost. The difference is that the government basically takes care of all your needs like schooling, welfare, everything. So almost 75% of from the rest of the 40% is plain savings. In India, almost literally tax is money given to the government by us for free. What do we get in return? Screwed up roads, useless government schools, teachers who teach subjects that they themselves know nothing about, buses and trains that are dirty, etc. But at least the last 2 decades the face of India in urban centers has undergone a huge transformation and it has helped lot of low income ppl becoming middle class, erstwhile middle class becoming upper-middle class, etc. But it also has increased the divide between haves and have-nots.

Ya, that way my dad is also risk averse and long term but he is very aware of how to play around and admits he is uncomfortable to playing the risky game. I was a short-time gainer, but of late I see the virtue of long-term gain too...actually its coz of my philosophy in life, I want my today to be good and not suffer rather than compromising today for a so-so life after retirement. I just believe that I won't live longer than 40-45...lol.

I am trying to live today well and plan for a rainy day tomorrow, at the same time find avenues where I could use what I have earned to help someone else (after ensuring I am comfy...believe me we can live way comfortably (not like owning an aircraft types but owning a nice good posh house, living on posh products, etc) and still have lotsa a money to spare. I only believe that that spare money should not rot in a bank but go to help someone else). The more you give the more you get! see that's how my selfish personality manifests...lol

Nirvanam wrote "I just believe that I won't live longer than 40-45.."
What let you think so?

Nirvanam wrote "...but owning a nice good posh house, living on posh products, etc) and still have lotsa a money to spare."
Let me also suggest -->a nice caring partner

just coz, actually

Hopefully, she'll also die at the same moment I do...the thought of her having to go thru all the pain and feel lonely is disturbing. Of course life moves on but still...

Most wars today are driven by nationalism, I always felt nationalism is a double edged sword, it stops tribal and ethnic conflicts by giving people a larger identity. But this also makes any war between nations lot more dangerous as nations tend to have much larger resources to call upon than any tribe could ever have.

I think nationalism should be used as a stop gap measure till most humans start to have a larger Humanist value.