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why I am selfish

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Marian
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Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 2:25 pm

Re: why I am selfish

#21 Post by Marian » September 22nd, 2010, 5:00 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Sorry for the delay in answering. I've been laid up with a sinus infection.
Daniel P wrote: You are saying that, when you asked the question about which one of the old autistic categories I fitted in, it's because you wanted to understand me better
Bingo! Thank you for your thorough effort in explaining about perception/cognition. I should have been more clear. I wanted to know how being on the spectrum effects your thinking/perception in particular. Do you tend to see things in black and white, all or nothing? Like I do. Ha! :) Bet you didn't expect that one. Yes, you've read that correctly, I have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum myself although this is where I have trouble with the whole DSM stuff.
I suppose that's a different topic altogether but just let me say that I think normal itself is on a spectrum so while I have some aspects of asperger's, I have been able to compensate a great deal. Yet, I'm clearly different. But back to you.

Do you find that when talking to others that you do the 'teacher' routine? What about connecting with others? How about lapsing into silence when a good conversation requires you to keep participating?

Sorry if I'm side-tracking this discussion about selfishness by being just a wee bit selfish :D
Transformative fire...

Marian
Posts: 3985
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 2:25 pm

Re: why I am selfish

#22 Post by Marian » September 22nd, 2010, 6:59 pm

Dave B wrote: I am guilty in making the assumption that autism is less amenable to such therapy, is this correct?
I'd like to jump in here, if that's ok. Are people on the spectrum less amenable to talking therapy? Well, that depends. And here's where I am less black and white :) It depends on where the person is on the spectrum ie. verbal or not, how much introspection they possess etc. Depends on the why the person has the anxiety/depression. Is it caused by external or internal factors or combination?

Dave B wrote:*One of the most commonly used "techniques", used by well meaning friends but also by therapists, is, "Get out more, meet people, join a club or two . . ." For the person who is, say, naturally a little reclusive, who can happily curl up with a book for weeks' worth of evenings - but who cannot even achieve this level of relaxation and recreation due to whatever problem they are experiencing - suggesting that they change what is a natural behaviour pattern, for them, to an artificial one that requires constant effort to maintain, may eventually make matters worse.
There's potentially a big difference between a recluse and someone with ASD. A recluse may choose to distance him/herself from others on purpose but still has the typical neurological responses that most others have regarding ability to connect, how to speak in such a way as to facilitate this, reading non-verbals etc. For the ASD person, no matter how many skills they obtain, no matter how hard they try, they won't be able to communicate/connect like an NT (neurotypical) person.

That's where depression/anxiety often come in for people 'higher' on the spectrum. If you can see that you are different, if you can analyze what you do and how you do it but you can't change it, depression will set in. That's not to say that one can't learn new skills but it's more like 'cut and paste' since the change is probably superficial. That is to say the wiring of the brain hasn't altered but you've added something on.

Dave B wrote:It may be possible in very small steps, little experiments, and the sufferer may genuinely find something new that occupies them sufficiently to perform a "cure".
Sometimes, it really hurts when I see other people connect easily just by chatting and I'm on the periphery. If I try too hard to join with them, I'm excluded as much as if I remain detached. And I have no clue what I'm doing wrong. That can lead to suffering because many people with ASD want to have friends, connect, share and be included. It's why I like this forum. Here I can feel included so much so that I bravely stepped out of my created reclusiveness, bought a plane ticket and flew 5000 km to meet the fine folks here.
I think what helped me take such a huge chance, imo, is that I got to show who I am here first without having to worry about the non-verbals. I was honest to a fault (very typical of many people with ASD), blunt and opinionated but they didn't kick me out. At least not yet. :)

And to end this selfish narrative, the other thing I have done is to learn to be happy with who I am, regardless of my eccentricities. This is who I am. Take it or leave it. I'll be okay no matter what. And I don't say this in a snippy, 'I'm better than others' way but rather out of having gone through the very hard work of being an 'outsider', someone who is different, someone who has struggled to fit in and ended up finding a place where I like me. It's still a work in progress...

I think I need to apologize to Daniel if I've taken up your thread. It's not all about me but you sure wouldn't know it... :laughter:
Transformative fire...

Fia
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Re: why I am selfish

#23 Post by Fia » September 22nd, 2010, 9:18 pm

Marian wrote:Sometimes, it really hurts when I see other people connect easily just by chatting and I'm on the periphery.

I think this is universal, just exaggerated by the autism spectrum.
I can cope with social chatty functions but my internal voice is screaming "why can't you have a name badge? Don't ask them what they do FFS woman - be more interesting; I'm talking a pile of shite here; oh no I'm gonna start stuttering or repeating myself or precipitating a long uncomfortable silence... ah the weather - that always works"
Marian wrote:someone who has struggled to fit in and ended up finding a place where I like me.

It's all any of us can do, learn to love ourselves warts, baby bellies and all :D

We like you Marian :kiss:
And it's really good to see you back here on TH, Daniel P too :kiss:

lewist
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Re: why I am selfish

#24 Post by lewist » September 22nd, 2010, 9:47 pm

Fia wrote:
Marian wrote:Sometimes, it really hurts when I see other people connect easily just by chatting and I'm on the periphery.

I think this is universal, just exaggerated by the autism spectrum.
I can cope with social chatty functions but my internal voice is screaming "why can't you have a name badge? Don't ask them what they do FFS woman - be more interesting; I'm talking a pile of shite here; oh no I'm gonna start stuttering or repeating myself or precipitating a long uncomfortable silence... ah the weather - that always works"
Marian wrote:someone who has struggled to fit in and ended up finding a place where I like me.

It's all any of us can do, learn to love ourselves warts, baby bellies and all :D

We like you Marian :kiss:
And it's really good to see you back here on TH, Daniel P too :kiss:
I think I could have written a guy version of what Fia wrote. It's very easy to be on the periphery, to not feel very interesting; I feel like that quite often in social gatherings.

It was good to meet you, Marian. I hope we'll meet again in the not too distant future.

Daniel! The very fact you can talk about it is a good thing. We are all selfish sometimes. Altruism is often a social thing, where even if we do good anonymously we can see the results and feel good about it.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Dave B
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Re: why I am selfish

#25 Post by Dave B » September 22nd, 2010, 10:23 pm

Good post there, Marian.

But I was not comparing the two directly, I was trying to ask whether or not there was any similarities in how "reactive" and "pathological" (for want of a more accurate word) conditions can be treated. As I said somewhere near the start I know nothing of the problems of autism in adult life, the media stuff mostly deals with kids.

There is one autistic chap, who did a programme on TV a few years back, who is a numbers genius. Every number has a shape for him and he simply combines and "reads" the shapes in his mind, it is his perception quirk. He does not come over as having problems in relating to people and has a dry sense of humour. However there is a little "hesitancy" in his speech at times from what I can remember. I also seem to remember that he managed to "learn" how to handle such things as meeting many new people and situations. Was that a "cure" or a coping strategy that requires either constant effort or developing specific behaviours for specific situation, rehearsing them - or something completely different - I wonder.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Marian
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Re: why I am selfish

#26 Post by Marian » September 23rd, 2010, 3:32 am

Fia wrote: I think this is universal, just exaggerated by the autism spectrum.
I can cope with social chatty functions but my internal voice is screaming "why can't you have a name badge? Don't ask them what they do FFS woman - be more interesting; I'm talking a pile of shite here; oh no I'm gonna start stuttering or repeating myself or precipitating a long uncomfortable silence... ah the weather - that always works"
:laughter: It's reassuring to know that I'm in good company with my social issues. I want you guys to know that I went out for coffee (I had a soft drink) with four women last night. I don't remember ever doing that. I'm taking my issues and throwing caution to the wind. Being here has helped with that.
Hey, I just thought of something...Daniel, your starting this thread has helped me. Thanks.
Fia wrote:It's all any of us can do, learn to love ourselves warts, baby bellies and all :D
We like you Marian :kiss:
And it's really good to see you back here on TH, Daniel P too :kiss:
I started to cry when I read this. Did you know it's very hard to type when you can't see the keyboard? :) I don't recall ever being told that but now I have and it makes all the difference!
I like you all too! But I bet you might have guessed that already since not everyone traverses the ocean just on a lark.
Daniel, I hope you like it here too.
lewist wrote: It was good to meet you, Marian. I hope we'll meet again in the not too distant future.
Likewise, Lewis. I look forward to it!
lewist wrote:Altruism is often a social thing, where even if we do good anonymously we can see the results and feel good about it.
I'd like to add that I believe there is selfishness within the very act of being altruistic. What I mean by that is there is a pay-off to ourselves ie. feeling good, when we act altruistically so we continue to do so since it meets our needs and the other party's needs. Win/win.
Dave B wrote:Good post there, Marian.
Thank you.
Dave B wrote:, I was trying to ask whether or not there was any similarities in how "reactive" and "pathological" (for want of a more accurate word) conditions can be treated.
Oh shoot, I thought I was brilliantly answering your question. :D Yes, there are similiarities. I was hoping that by using myself as an example, it might illustrate the possibilities. But maybe this will help (uh oh, there I go trying to help again...:) ).
Anti-depressants can often help the spectrumite in the same way that it will for others. In fact, anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs can work wonders because it gives the person with autism more room to work on skills they don't develop naturally. Is that anything near what you were looking for?
Dave B wrote:There is one autistic chap, who did a programme on TV a few years back, who is a numbers genius...Was that a "cure" or a coping strategy that requires either constant effort or developing specific behaviours for specific situation, rehearsing them - or something completely different - I wonder.
They call chaps like that autistic savants. Those are the people on the spectrum who you hear about the most because they have quite amazing abilities in very specific areas. People are amazed by them but I often feel that savants are treated almost like circus freaks. As in, 'Look everyone, he/she can remember everyone's date of birth and what day they were born. Isn't that incredible?' It is incredible but it gives the impression that all people with autism are like this but very few people are savants. Most are your regular everyday folk who are seen as odd.
But to answer your question. Imho, the numbers chap is not cured. He most likely uses carefully crafted, well practiced behaviours that require constant, conscious effort and specific behaviours for specific situations.
Transformative fire...

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Dave B
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Re: why I am selfish

#27 Post by Dave B » September 23rd, 2010, 12:25 pm

Anti-depressants can often help the spectrumite in the same way that it will for others. In fact, anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs can work wonders because it gives the person with autism more room to work on skills they don't develop naturally. Is that anything near what you were looking for?
OK, Marian, this sounds like one can treat gross psycho-physical conditions with medications with no problem. As I know from my own anxiety attacks the rational side of me knows damn well that there is no reason for the anxiety, that it is a "side-effect" of an experience. This does not stop me thinking that I am going to have another shock/heart attack or, simply, die! But, because of the rational bit I can just sit down and wait for the effects to go away. Could an autistic person do the same?

BTW, the beta blocker I am on, Sotalol, is also used to treat anxiety - I would hate to think what the effects of the attacks might be without it!
Imho, the numbers chap is not cured. He most likely uses carefully crafted, well practiced behaviours that require constant, conscious effort and specific behaviours for specific situations.
That is what I thought, there must be a lot of effort expended there (though I guess that there are degrees of severity?) and it concerns me that such effort usually has some sort of kick-back. In the case of this chap it seems he actively sets up situations where he can demonstrate his skills, researches numerical savants and, possibly, talks on the subject. Better than working as a sort of human computer for some company I would guess.I don't think his actual knowledge of maths was that good, so he could not be a researcher or whatever to earn a crust.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Marian
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Re: why I am selfish

#28 Post by Marian » September 23rd, 2010, 4:17 pm

Dave B wrote: As I know from my own anxiety attacks the rational side of me knows damn well that there is no reason for the anxiety, that it is a "side-effect" of an experience. This does not stop me thinking that I am going to have another shock/heart attack or, simply, die! But, because of the rational bit I can just sit down and wait for the effects to go away. Could an autistic person do the same?
Yes. Someone with autism could conceivably do the same. I do it. In my experience, anxiety seems to be a major factor in every single person I've met or read about on the spectrum; anxiety seems to be hard-wired into 'active' position in the brain for us.
But everyone on the spectrum is different even though we share some general key traits. How those traits are expressed and how they are managed are often unique to the personality. That's why it's important to consider how language is used. Not sure if you noticed but I rarely use the term 'autistic person'. You might think that's not very significant but it places the disorder before the human. You are more than your heart attack. Am I making any sense?

Anxiety untreated can be completely debilitating depending on the severity, of course. I take Prozac for both depression and anxiety/compulsiveness. Without that, I wouldn't be able to function at all. My brain is just too messed up; something to do with the seratonin levels. I also use CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) to help with anxiety, so stuff like talking to myself internally. ie. reminding myself to breathe deeply etc.
Dave B wrote:That is what I thought, there must be a lot of effort expended there (though I guess that there are degrees of severity?) and it concerns me that such effort usually has some sort of kick-back.
Yes, you are correct about the energy expended. Again, I think it's an individual thing. Kick-back takes all sorts of forms: exhaustion, more stress, reclusiveness in order to build up supply.
With all the energy expended on just managing a social situation, there's not much room, if any, to be paying attention to threats in the environment so there's increased vulnerability. So many things to look out for and only so much energy to go around. It's not a big shock that someone on the spectrum might not be able to give all that much back to others. Can't even see others if your whole system is rebelling from input.

Dave B wrote:In the case of this chap it seems he actively sets up situations where he can demonstrate his skills, researches numerical savants and, possibly, talks on the subject. Better than working as a sort of human computer for some company I would guess.I don't think his actual knowledge of maths was that good, so he could not be a researcher or whatever to earn a crust.
I suspect that he probably has someone helping him in the background with setting up these situations and to handle subtle nuances of social dynamics. You can practice but real life situations are constantly changing.
Oh, once you get someone on the spectrum to talk about their 'special interest', look out! They often think everyone is as excited as they are about it. They'll go on and on..... :laughter: Hmm, maybe I ought to stop talking right about now. :)
Transformative fire...

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Dave B
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Re: why I am selfish

#29 Post by Dave B » September 23rd, 2010, 4:41 pm

Thanks, Marian, picture clearer now.

Regarding the last - it is my experience that any person with a deep interest in any subject will "lecture" at Olympic levels given the chance! Enthusiasts are necessary to keep things going, but need careful handling - I know, I can never understand why people do not get excited about the use of the English language and its huge capacity for nuance and fun! And I am just a normal bloke who got a little hooked.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Daniel P
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Re: why I am selfish

#30 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 7:45 pm

Fia wrote: I don't know if this helps Daniel, as I do understand you have difficulties that are different to mine, but it has been a very useful concept for me....
What you are saying makes good sense to me. Have you read Steven Covey? He makes a similar point to yours if my recollection is correct.

I don't think we are that different either. The things that would fill or deplete your pot are similar with me. Your liking of structure and organisation struck me. People on the autistic spectrum like these too :smile:

Daniel P
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Re: why I am selfish

#31 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:10 pm

Dave B wrote: The differentiation in my mind was that (generally speaking) "reactive" responses, anxiety and depression mainly, can usually be "cured" by talking therapy and behaviour modification (back towards whatever was "normal" for the person ideally - trying to change the person's basic life pattern can cause further problems in my experience*).

I am guilty in making the assumption that autism is less amenable to such therapy, is this correct?
I think you are correct. I take on board Marian's answer, that it depends on the person and on where they are on the spectrum, but I think that, overall, people on the spectrum are far less likely to be helped by such therapy. This is an opinion that I have seen shared by professionals.

Regarding the differentiation that you were making between the two types of response - If I understand you well, you are saying that some people tend to react by going out and meeting people, and that others tend to become more withdrawn. Is this what you are saying?
I think that people on the autistic spectrum would be more likely to react by becoming withdrawn. We don't have the skills to interact with others naturally, so, if we are feeling down, the effort will feel even more draining. In addition, many (but not all) of us are introverts too, so we won't be drawn to seeking rest by interacting with others.

Daniel P
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Re: why I am selfish

#32 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:26 pm

Marian wrote: Do you tend to see things in black and white, all or nothing?
Yes, I do.
I also didn't realize, until a few years ago, that other people had their own perspectives, didn't see things as I saw them, and didn't know what I know. I didn't realize that other people had emotions. It's only once I become aware that I was on the autism spectrum, that I slowly started to realize all this.
I also see minor details but not the big picture. This is why I have been going to an evangelical church for two years but didn't see a problem with it. There were enough bits here and there in the church's teachings to keep me happy, but I wasn't seeing the big picture of what the church was about. It took me a long time to put all the details together to see the big picture.
Also, my very high sensitivity to certain sounds has made me unable to do some things and go to some places.
To sum it up, I would say that, although I am outwardly very high functioning, some of my difficulties are very serious. They are also hidden. You wouldn't know what I am like inside, unless you knew me very well.

Marian wrote: Like I do. Ha! :) Bet you didn't expect that one. Yes, you've read that correctly, I have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum
That was a surprise!
Marian wrote: I think normal itself is on a spectrum
I agree. There is a grey area where some people have a lot of traits of autism spectrum disorders, not enough to qualify for a full diagnosis but enough to make them different.

Marian wrote:Do you find that when talking to others that you do the 'teacher' routine? What about connecting with others? How about lapsing into silence when a good conversation requires you to keep participating?
I have been able to compensate a lot about my difficulties in holding conversations now. I have learnt to keep my inputs short, and to listen.

Daniel P
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Re: why I am selfish

#33 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:36 pm

Marian wrote: I think I need to apologize to Daniel if I've taken up your thread. It's not all about me but you sure wouldn't know it... :laughter:
No problem at all. :smile:

Fia
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Re: why I am selfish

#34 Post by Fia » September 23rd, 2010, 8:49 pm

Daniel P wrote: Have you read Steven Covey? He makes a similar point to yours if my recollection is correct.
No, I haven't, Daniel, but perhaps I should, having just read some of the many rave reviews of him on Amazon.... I think I came across the concept over a long kitchen table conversation many years ago, and it made huge sense to me.
Daniel P wrote:Your liking of structure and organisation struck me. People on the autistic spectrum like these too :smile:

I detest shilly-shallying around in the vague hope that things will be done or miraculously fall into place, and am infuriated by "organisations" making things hard for folk because they can't organise :angry: It isn't rocket science, just workable structures and those being paid to organise doing their jobs...

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Re: why I am selfish

#35 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:53 pm

Dave B wrote: Regarding the last - it is my experience that any person with a deep interest in any subject will "lecture" at Olympic levels given the chance!
In people on the autism spectrum, this reaches extremes. Some people make their children stand in front of them for hours to listen to their monologues. My father used to do that.

I also agree with Marian's comments about a "cure". People with autism can, intellectually, learn to handle some social situations and to behave more or less "normal" in these situations, but there is a lot of energy expanded in doing that and the person is still autistic.

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Re: why I am selfish

#36 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:55 pm

Marian wrote:I want you guys to know that I went out for coffee (I had a soft drink) with four women last night. I don't remember ever doing that.
Well done! :smile:

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Re: why I am selfish

#37 Post by Daniel P » September 23rd, 2010, 8:58 pm

Thank you people for the kind comments that you have made to me in this thread.

I hope that I am going to enjoy myself here too. Well, I already like it here. :smile: I hope that I will end up feeling relaxed and at home on this forum. You'll have to be patient though, it takes me a loooooooooooooong time to reach the point where I can feel comfortable with people.

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Re: why I am selfish

#38 Post by Dave B » September 23rd, 2010, 9:03 pm

Regarding the differentiation that you were making between the two types of response - If I understand you well, you are saying that some people tend to react by going out and meeting people, and that others tend to become more withdrawn. Is this what you are saying?
Not exactly, Daniel, I was trying to find out whether or not those who are diagnosed as being "on the spectrum" have the ability to learn "new life habits" as it were. It would seem that this is possible but not in a way that others might assimilate such new habits as part of their automatic behaviour, do not have to think about it and expend no energy.

If Marian is right it would seem that energy needs to be found all the time, that there is a conscious effort required that has its own problems.

I should have re-read back to where Marian said that "normal is on the spectrum" - that came into my mind when you mentioned structure and organisation, Daniel.

I know that I am slightly compulsive, not to any degree that affects my life, but I actually find it usseful in some circumstances. One of my voluntary jobs is searching national probate records (thousands of them) for a certain type that occurred in Gloucester. This requires scanning thousands of microfiche images (there are many of us doing this job) and, in my case, looking for a "visual pattern" rather than an actual word. It requires a certain kind of mind, one that can "fixate" on a certain image and ignore all all very quickly. To actually read the words takes more effort and slows the job considerably.

I am also a born organiser, though not a naturally tidy person! Although my room is a tip I like my working environment to be organised logically. I also like designing forms and paperwork systems that make the job easier. I get ratty when others put the tools back in the wrong drawer etc., "Put them in the same place every time and others know where to look!" It does not always matter where that place is.

Yet, I have no problem "reading" other people; empathising, sympathising, listening and asking pertinent questions etc. If it is a problem I have also experienced I usually have an accurate "picture" of the others thoughts and fears, I know that the irrational can cause as much of a problem as the actual.

I would not consider myself "normal" but if we are all on that spectrum I do think I might be a tad closer to the autistic end than I might have described myself before becoming involved in this thread! Will I worry about it? Nope!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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