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Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Kismet
Posts: 171
Joined: May 27th, 2012, 2:29 am

Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#21 Post by Kismet » July 12th, 2012, 3:30 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Alan H wrote:Meaningless nonsense.
In the very act, you condemn, and thus condemn yourself...
"There has to be another way."
I wonder what you think that should be...in your judgement, of course.
Prefer 'estimation' - though none of us are exempt from judgment.

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Altfish
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#22 Post by Altfish » July 12th, 2012, 8:19 am

Kismet wrote:Essentially, I am speaking pro the criminal who I believe is in reality the victim. I do not believe, like Jesus says, you can judge lest ye yourself be judged. Before you condemn, on what basis do you condemn?

This is not to in any mean I condone wickedness. Only that I sympathize with persons internal states of fear, guilt, and disaffection.
What a pity that the god of the bible is not as sympathetic and forgiving. If I remember correctly god kills somewhere near 2.5 million in the bible; satan trails behind with about 10. Tell me again, who is supposed to be the bad guy?

I condemn on the basis of being fair to my fellow human beings, I suppose you could call it Humanism. I also forgive or sympathise on the same basis.

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Alan H
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#23 Post by Alan H » July 12th, 2012, 9:15 am

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:Meaningless nonsense.
In the very act, you condemn, and thus condemn yourself...
"There has to be another way."
I wonder what you think that should be...in your judgement, of course.
Prefer 'estimation' - though none of us are exempt from judgment.
You're playing with words. You estimate/judge your 'better' way, and - in your estimation/judgement - this is almost invariably a form of attack.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#24 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » July 12th, 2012, 10:15 am

Kismet wrote:I am not discounting criticism, only that it is premised by a certain particularism and destroys the coherence of what I wish to demonstrate.
I wasn't just talking about criticism, Kismet. Not all the replies we have made to your posts have been critical, let alone destructively critical. Some have engaged directly and constructively with the points you make. It would be good if you could engage directly with the points we make. I don't know what you mean by "a certain particularism", but you must know that we are bound to have premises that are different from yours. They are open to challenge. But the accusations you have made about humanists, and the assumptions you have made about what humanists believe and how they behave, must also be open to challenge. And if we challenge them, that doesn't mean we are judging you as a person, let alone condemning you. In fact, some of your own criticisms of humanists read rather like a condemnation. As you said earlier, none of us is exempt from judgement.
Kismet wrote:This is not easy, but there is a unity in these associated assertions I am tryng to show....
I think it might help if you engage in constructive debate, and hold back a bit on the unsupported assertions.
Kismet wrote:Perhaps it is a no-starter.
Depends what you mean by no-starter. It's likely to be a nonstarter in the sense that you're unlikely to win us round entirely to your point of view. But if your criticisms of humanism (or, as I suspect, of views that are not exclusively humanistic or common to all humanists) are valid, then you might at the very least offer food for thought.

Emma

stevenw888
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#25 Post by stevenw888 » July 12th, 2012, 1:39 pm

I wish I understood this stuff. Then I could join in.

Quote "I am not discounting criticism, only that it is premised by a certain particularism and destroys the coherence of what I wish to demonstrate."
I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means. I know what "I am not discounting criticism" means, but the rest of the sentence just sounds menaningless.
Could we introduce a rule in this particular thread that says "No-one is allowed to use long words" especially not long words that are not used regularly, except on "Call My Bluff".

It seems to me that everyone is trying to express fairly simple concepts, but then trying to be clever by using long words.
Remember the "Plain English Campaign" - if a short word has the same meaning as a long word, then use the short word!
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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Alan H
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#26 Post by Alan H » July 12th, 2012, 1:51 pm

stevenw888 wrote:Remember the "Plain English Campaign" - if a short word has the same meaning as a long word, then use the short word!
Indubitably.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Sel
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#27 Post by Sel » July 12th, 2012, 2:19 pm

stevenw888 wrote:I wish I understood this stuff. Then I could join in.

Quote "I am not discounting criticism, only that it is premised by a certain particularism and destroys the coherence of what I wish to demonstrate."
I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means. I know what "I am not discounting criticism" means, but the rest of the sentence just sounds menaningless.
Could we introduce a rule in this particular thread that says "No-one is allowed to use long words" especially not long words that are not used regularly, except on "Call My Bluff".

It seems to me that everyone is trying to express fairly simple concepts, but then trying to be clever by using long words.
Remember the "Plain English Campaign" - if a short word has the same meaning as a long word, then use the short word!
:clap: "Precise and concise" should be everyone's motto. I would say that I am a person of few words but there are those who would fall on the floor in fits of laughter if I were to make such a claim.

Kismet, for all of your wordiness, why do you not simply say that humanism is the ultimate deification of humans and against God's will? We cannot define what is moral but rather must take our moral code from a superior Being (your capitalization, not mine). That could open the conversation to recent research showing the evolution of behaviours and emotions such as empathy, a sense of fairness, sadness, joy. jealousy,etc in other mammals and the development of community in other species. Recent brain research could also be brought into the discussion.

From there ... a great discussion on how to define what is right and wrong and the grey areas that result.
"The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge." Bertrand Russell

stevenw888
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#28 Post by stevenw888 » July 12th, 2012, 2:56 pm

:D + 1!
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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Kismet
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#29 Post by Kismet » July 13th, 2012, 5:05 am

Sel wrote:Kismet, for all of your wordiness, why do you not simply say that humanism is the ultimate deification of humans and against God's will?
That is in a way what I mean, but in another it is not. I am interested in Being over the Human. The human is simply an accidental covering for the Being. Our humanity is the means, not the end.

If God has a will it is the will for direct self-disclosure, and is not metaphysical in nature, such as a traditional theistic account would have it. The point is, we cannot use reason or science in that it is inherently a by-product of metaphysics, and so is nothing less than the time-bound projection of our "tiny mad idea" (to quote ACIM). Thus, nothing by it can be rendered true, only more false.

So, I don't buy into your neat recapitulation of my position because it de-coheres it into a stagnant proposition that goes nowhere, but can be easily dispensed with by your own reason. In other words, you answer the question the very moment you raise it, and your segueway into the paths of science only makes this ever more clear. You cannot take the question of Being seriously, but then again most people do not.

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Alan C.
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#30 Post by Alan C. » July 13th, 2012, 9:47 pm

Kissme
If God has a will
Did you mean, If Will has a god? :smile:
If your god is,
Perfect, immutable, transcendent, nonphysical, omniscient, omnipresent, personal, free, all-loving, all-just, all-merciful, and the creator of the universe. Why-TF would she need a will?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Kismet
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#31 Post by Kismet » July 13th, 2012, 9:50 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Kissme
If God has a will
Did you mean, If Will has a god? :smile:
If your god is,
Perfect, immutable, transcendent, nonphysical, omniscient, omnipresent, personal, free, all-loving, all-just, all-merciful, and the creator of the universe. Why-TF would she need a will?
Good question.

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Alan C.
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#32 Post by Alan C. » July 13th, 2012, 9:53 pm

^
Good question.
And?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Kismet
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#33 Post by Kismet » July 13th, 2012, 9:57 pm

Alan C. wrote:
^
Good question.
And?
You need an and?

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Alan C.
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#34 Post by Alan C. » July 13th, 2012, 10:53 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan C. wrote:
^
Good question.
And?
You need an and?
Well maybe not an "and" But maybe an answer to my question.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Kismet
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#35 Post by Kismet » July 13th, 2012, 10:54 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Kismet wrote: You need an and?
Well maybe not an "and" But maybe an answer to my question.
I don't know if God has a will or not. At least, not in the traditional sense.

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Alan H
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#36 Post by Alan H » July 13th, 2012, 11:29 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan C. wrote:
Kismet wrote: You need an and?
Well maybe not an "and" But maybe an answer to my question.
I don't know if God has a will or not. At least, not in the traditional sense.
In what non-traditional sense do you think he might have a will? And on what basis? But if you don't know if he has a will in the traditional sense, how sure are you that he has a will in the non-traditional sense?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#37 Post by Kismet » July 14th, 2012, 4:00 am

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote: I don't know if God has a will or not. At least, not in the traditional sense.
In what non-traditional sense do you think he might have a will? And on what basis? But if you don't know if he has a will in the traditional sense, how sure are you that he has a will in the non-traditional sense?
Well, God is an agent at least. One that consciously reveals himself. He is not merely a static entity therefore, though he might come across as such in some pockets of philosophical thought. Isn't one key feature of agency that you have a will?

This will might be outside of time. It might be an eternal will.

But let's pretend no personal God exists, and there is only Being.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#38 Post by Tetenterre » July 16th, 2012, 11:59 am

Alan C. wrote:
Kissme wrote: If God has a will
Did you mean, If Will has a god? :smile:
Oh. I thought it was a typo for "If god has a willy..." :exit:
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Alan H
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#39 Post by Alan H » July 16th, 2012, 12:11 pm

Kismet wrote:Well, God is an agent at least.
You've not established that and I'm not endeared to take your word for it.
One that consciously reveals himself.
You've not established that and I'm not endeared to take your word for it.
He is not merely a static entity...
Not merely? You've not established that he is even a static entity.
Isn't one key feature of agency that you have a will?
Let's sort out the unevidenced assumptions first.
This will might be outside of time. It might be an eternal will.
This will might be green with blue spots. But at least we have an idea of what 'green' and 'blue spots' mean, unlike your 'outside of time' and 'eternal will'.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Guilt, Projection, and Moral Execution

#40 Post by Dave B » July 16th, 2012, 12:23 pm

But let's pretend no personal God exists, and there is only Being.
Even if I knew what that really meant I beleive that I would be disinclined to pretend it. I might consider it as part of your argument, as valid as "God does not exist", since we cannot prove that as a fact (he just does not seem to exist in the way that some beleive.)
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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