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Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

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pantodragon
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Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#1 Post by pantodragon » January 24th, 2014, 3:21 pm

The following is a summarized account of the life story of the science of palaeontology with specific reference to research into prehistoric cave art.

Before the 1870s, France had a monopoly on research into cave art: all recognized examples of cave art were located in France and all leading authorities on the subject were also French.

In the 1870s, a new discovery of cave art was made public by a Spanish amateur archaeologist, namely the paintings of Altamira in Spain. This discovery was supported by Spain’s leading palaeontologist. He presented the findings at an international science conference, but they were shunned by the other scientists. The discovery at Altamira sparked a vicious dispute. The academic establishment vilified and ridiculed the amateur scientist who discovered Altamira. The paintings were proclaimed a hoax (few, if any, of Altamira’s opponents ever visited the caves in person). Since the academic establishment also controlled the world’s foremost journal of palaeontology, they also actively controlled whose opinions were published.

This war continued for over 20 years until the Altamira paintings were finally accepted as genuine prehistoric cave art. Meanwhile, a leading French academic, one of Altamira’s most “enthusiastic” opponents, made a public about-turn. In so doing, he secured for himself virtual control of the emerging scientific discipline of “cave art studies”. In fact, he established an academic dynasty --- of favoured acolytes succeeding their masters --- for over 80 years. When this dynasty ended in 1986 it left a vacuum and the study of cave-art virtually collapsed --- all the old theories were rubbished and most new research has merely degenerated into the amassing of vast quantities of data. The justification for this, the amassing of information, is that when enough data has been gathered, a new theory will emerge.

Like their predecessors, the few hundred academics today who study cave-art exert as much control over the production and management of knowledge made available to the public as they can. This includes permanently closing the vast majority of caves to the public. Like their predecessors, they also engage in endless territorial rivalries and disputes.

(If you want to see the process in action, watch the film Life of Brian. In place of the multitude of factions, the People’s Liberation Front of Judea, the Judean People’s Liberation Front, the Liberation of Judea People’s Front etc, etc, all supposedly fighting for the liberation of Judea from the Romans, put a multitude of scientific factions all slugging it out amongst themselves instead of fighting the real enemies: Ignorance and Superstition! In the film, the Roman soldiers shake their heads in wonder as the various fronts slug it out and do the soldiers’ job for them. In life, Ignorance and Superstition shake their heads in wonder as the various scientific factions slug it out amongst themselves and ensure that Ignorance and Superstition remain firmly in command!)

The point of all this? It is a tale that is repeated endlessly in the world of science. How can you trust anything that comes out of such a world? --- you cannot. Science has been set up with the peer review system etc supposedly designed to off-set the corruption of human nature. It quite obviously fails to do so.

The latest update (2005) on the cave-painting situation is that a South African professor David Lewis-Williams, working at Witwatersrand University, has produced a theory relating shamanistic visions to images in cave art. And how do you suppose the world of cave-art scientists has greeted this new theory? They have picked every nit they can possibly find that might go some way to derailing Lewis-Williams’ theories. Fortunately, Lewis-Williams is a mature and experienced scientist working at prestigious institution and therefore is less vulnerable to the shark attack than his Spanish amateur predecessor (Sautuola). Nevertheless, it remains the case that truth will not win here. The winner will be he who can amass the greatest backing, who can command the services of the most expensive lawyers and preferably he who has friends on the editorial boards of the major scientific journals……..or rather, the winners will Ignorance and Superstition.

PS: If you are interested in some of the nits, here’s a few: There was no evidence in the caves of prehistoric hallucinogenic plants (just in case you can’t spot the idiocy for yourself --- why suppose that the hallucinogens had to be taken in the caves?). Nit 2: there is not enough information concerning the geographical distribution of hallucinogenic plants to be quite certain that said plants were available in the area of the caves. Nit 3 --- the beezer! --- the best yet!: let’s quibble about what exactly a shaman is. This is such a beaut: it is SO beloved of nit-pickers, it diverts people so wonderfully away from the main issue and has them tied up in knots, tempers frayed as they argue where the latest comma should be positioned in the definition of the word shaman. If you want to know the rest of them, then refer to the Debunker’s Manual, Section: Science.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#2 Post by Dave B » January 24th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Like their predecessors, they also engage in endless territorial rivalries and disputes.
Just human nature, going back to when Ug's family had to contest for available resources with Ogg's.
The point of all this? It is a tale that is repeated endlessly in the world of science.
Might have guessed all that steam would condense into this . . . See above. Yes, there is competition in science, it is a valid driving force (providing it does not produce premature results, and most of those are due to personal egos.) But science in the 21st century is far larger and far more expensive for, mostly, any one team to cope with it all. Do you understand just how much international cooperation goes on, Pants?

Oh, that is not counting any science that has a high commercial funding factor, then it becomes "IP" and is held close to the chest. But that attitude is driven by commercialism, not the spirit of discovery and sharing that most academics indulge in.

You absolutely sure about the impossibility of drug use in prehistory? They would have tried all plants materials, at some time, as food or medicinal materials - so surely they are bound to have found all kinds of magic mushrooms, datura, tobacco, coca and so forth. Chances are they also found, quite early, that some things left in water for a few days produced an interesting effect when the water was drunk.

[Excellent book on cave art, though now out of date (more pound since) & print (though there are 2nd hand copies available from 1p on Amazon), is "Secrets of the Ice Age: the world of the cave artist" by Evan Hadingham. Pictures, statistics and info on the weather and type of flora and fauna around at the time.]
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#3 Post by animist » January 24th, 2014, 5:43 pm

Dave B wrote: You absolutely sure about the impossibility of drug use in prehistory?
I could be wrong, but I thought Panto favoured the pro-drug use theory

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#4 Post by Dave B » January 24th, 2014, 7:12 pm

animist wrote:
Dave B wrote: You absolutely sure about the impossibility of drug use in prehistory?
I could be wrong, but I thought Panto favoured the pro-drug use theory
Ooops, misread! :redface:

So used to Pants being anti just about everything that has to do with rational thought . . .
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#5 Post by pantodragon » January 27th, 2014, 4:54 pm

Dave B wrote:
Like their predecessors, they also engage in endless territorial rivalries and disputes.
Just human nature, going back to when Ug's family had to contest for available resources with Ogg's.
The point of all this? It is a tale that is repeated endlessly in the world of science.
Might have guessed all that steam would condense into this . . . See above. Yes, there is competition in science, it is a valid driving force (providing it does not produce premature results, and most of those are due to personal egos.) But science in the 21st century is far larger and far more expensive for, mostly, any one team to cope with it all. Do you understand just how much international cooperation goes on, Pants?

Oh, that is not counting any science that has a high commercial funding factor, then it becomes "IP" and is held close to the chest. But that attitude is driven by commercialism, not the spirit of discovery and sharing that most academics indulge in.

You absolutely sure about the impossibility of drug use in prehistory? They would have tried all plants materials, at some time, as food or medicinal materials - so surely they are bound to have found all kinds of magic mushrooms, datura, tobacco, coca and so forth. Chances are they also found, quite early, that some things left in water for a few days produced an interesting effect when the water was drunk.

[Excellent book on cave art, though now out of date (more pound since) & print (though there are 2nd hand copies available from 1p on Amazon), is "Secrets of the Ice Age: the world of the cave artist" by Evan Hadingham. Pictures, statistics and info on the weather and type of flora and fauna around at the time.]
Are you weakening, Dave B? Couldn't resist, eh?!! Oh, the allure of it. As irrestistable as...........my post, I mean --- YOU READ IT!!!!

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#6 Post by Dave B » January 27th, 2014, 5:25 pm

I skimmed through it and , as you will have seen, may have misinterpreted some of your rant.

Only took my eye because of my interest in archaeology. And in art in general to some degree.
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#7 Post by chryles » April 14th, 2014, 12:58 pm

Graham Hancock writes at length about the use of hallucinogens in early humans in his book Supernatural.
He raises some interesting points but, unfortunately, the vast majority of his writings are bullshit.
David Lewis-Williams began propounding his 'neuropsychological model' of cave art in the '80s with his colleague Thomas Dowson. Lewis-Williams refuses to take any hallucinogens himself, stating that there is nothing to be gained from a personal tour of the shamanic otherworld, which - we now know as our ancestors did not - is just a silly illusion. This is a position that Hancock disagrees with, saying "Theoretically there could be other realms, other dimensions, as all religious traditions and quantum physics alike maintain. Theoretically the brain could be a receiver as much as a generator of consciousness and thus might be fine tuned in altered states to pick up wavelengths that are normally not accessible to us."
If you're planning on wading through one of Hancock's books, this is the kind of shit you're going to have to put up with because his 'theories' (hypotheses) are based on a kind of twisted logic, it's a classic case of deciding what you want the answer to be and then forcing the results of your research to fit.
On a personal note i quite like the idea that early humans used hallucinogens (or other methods of reaching an altered state of consciousness) to expand their minds and inspire their art and it's reasonable to think that these people would have had some spiritual feelings during these episodes, indeed many people still do just that. But, liking the idea doesn't mean i have to accept it as fact.
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#8 Post by Alan H » April 14th, 2014, 1:29 pm

chryles wrote:If you're planning on wading through one of Hancock's books, this is the kind of shit you're going to have to put up with because his 'theories' (hypotheses) are based on a kind of twisted logic, it's a classic case of deciding what you want the answer to be and then forcing the results of your research to fit.
Indeed. I'm sure many of us read his books and those of Erich von Daniken. All utter nonsense.
On a personal note i quite like the idea that early humans used hallucinogens (or other methods of reaching an altered state of consciousness) to expand their minds and inspire their art and it's reasonable to think that these people would have had some spiritual feelings during these episodes, indeed many people still do just that. But, liking the idea doesn't mean i have to accept it as fact.
I suspect anything that affected their minds would have been mostly accidental, caused by contaminated foods: bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites. Just think what can happen to you if you have a fever...

But I don't think many psychologists subscribe to anything they would call an 'altered state of consciousness' per se.
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#9 Post by chryles » April 14th, 2014, 2:18 pm

I suspect anything that affected their minds would have been mostly accidental, caused by contaminated foods: bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites. Just think what can happen to you if you have a fever...
Of course it seems obvious that the sources of hallucinations would have been discovered accidentally but, i think their use and/or avoidance would have come about pretty quickly following the initial accidental discovery. It's human nature to want to communicate our experiences and, the more unusual the experience the more we want to communicate it.
But I don't think many psychologists subscribe to anything they would call an 'altered state of consciousness' per se
I'll call them 'trips' from now on. :wink:
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#10 Post by Dave B » April 14th, 2014, 3:43 pm

I seem to remember that there is some evidence of the use of natural psychotropic substances going back to pre-history.

They would have tried any new plant carefully and if it didn't hurt them investigate what properties it had. It is impossible that this did not include natural drug sources, there are so many of these growing all over the world and every new found plant or mushroom would have been carefully tested to work out its properties.

My pet theory about smoking, ordinary or wacky baccy, comes from this. The dry leaves might have been used as kindling for the fire. To get the fire going you blow on it, then take a deep breath which, almost invariably, includes a bit of smoke. Or the smoke in the cave fire would be breathed in. Hmmmm.

The rest is history . . . :D
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#11 Post by pantodragon » April 14th, 2014, 3:50 pm

Alan H and chryles:

As usual, the scientist speaks. Logic rules, ok. Just a pity logic doesn't actually rule. Just a pity the world is not governed by simple rules as though it was a car engine. The interesting point about these books, is not what they purport to say concerning history or whatever, but what they say about the writers. This is not accessible if you approach these books analytically and logically. It is ONLY accessible if you approach them as a human being. If you can do this, and you need a GREAT deal more sophistication than is required to prod rats in mazes and persuade pigeons to press buttons etc, if, as I say, you can do this, you gain the most amazing insights into the workings of the human mind. And part of the beauty is that, in the words of Wilfred Owen, you are accessing "truths that lie too deep for taint". In other words, if you are able to do this you are by-passing any attempt by people to lie and cheat and deceive such as to present themselves as they would like to be seen. You are going right into the mind beyond lies and deceit. It's just unfortunate that this sort of thing does require so much more sophistication because it puts it beyond the abilities of psychologists and indeed scientists in general. Poor psychologists, they'll have to stick with their rats in mazes, which unfortunately leads to no useful kinowledge or understanding of the human mind.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#12 Post by pantodragon » April 14th, 2014, 3:54 pm

Dave B wrote:I seem to remember that there is some evidence of the use of natural psychotropic substances going back to pre-history.

They would have tried any new plant carefully and if it didn't hurt them investigate what properties it had. It is impossible that this did not include natural drug sources, there are so many of these growing all over the world and every new found plant or mushroom would have been carefully tested to work out its properties.

My pet theory about smoking, ordinary or wacky baccy, comes from this. The dry leaves might have been used as kindling for the fire. To get the fire going you blow on it, then take a deep breath which, almost invariably, includes a bit of smoke. Or the smoke in the cave fire would be breathed in. Hmmmm.

The rest is history . . . :D
Alterantively: children love to play. For example, I remember mashing leaves of lime trees to make "soap". I don't know what the qualities of this "soap" were. We mashed up all sorts of leaves and just found that lime leaves produced a particularloy gloopy substance that did seem to have some cleaning properties when used on our muddy hands. Children play with anything and everything --- and that includes fire if their parents don't get there first.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#13 Post by Dave B » April 14th, 2014, 4:04 pm

pantodragon wrote:
Dave B wrote:I seem to remember that there is some evidence of the use of natural psychotropic substances going back to pre-history.

They would have tried any new plant carefully and if it didn't hurt them investigate what properties it had. It is impossible that this did not include natural drug sources, there are so many of these growing all over the world and every new found plant or mushroom would have been carefully tested to work out its properties.

My pet theory about smoking, ordinary or wacky baccy, comes from this. The dry leaves might have been used as kindling for the fire. To get the fire going you blow on it, then take a deep breath which, almost invariably, includes a bit of smoke. Or the smoke in the cave fire would be breathed in. Hmmmm.

The rest is history . . . :D
Alterantively: children love to play. For example, I remember mashing leaves of lime trees to make "soap". I don't know what the qualities of this "soap" were. We mashed up all sorts of leaves and just found that lime leaves produced a particularloy gloopy substance that did seem to have some cleaning properties when used on our muddy hands. Children play with anything and everything --- and that includes fire if their parents don't get there first.
But children in societies that rely on natural resources are educated and trained to deal with the environment in which they live. I would suggest that they are taught many plant qualities from a very young age. Many common or garden are poisonous or psychotropic and yes young kids end in hospital every day from eating these probably. But if mum and dad walk them round the garden and touch a plant and say, "Bad", enough times the kid will recognise this. Touch the raspberries, eat one and say, "Good!" and another lesson is learned.

OK, you have to deal with the crying, the upset stomach and/or puke from too many unsupervised berries later - but that is yet another lesson kids often have to learn the hard way. . .

Few kids today are not educated or allowed to make "safe" mistakes in the way I was. The world is considered too dangerous - so they never really learn to handle it.
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#14 Post by jdc » April 16th, 2014, 2:07 am

pantodragon wrote:Alan H and chryles:

As usual, the scientist speaks. Logic rules, ok. Just a pity logic doesn't actually rule. Just a pity the world is not governed by simple rules as though it was a car engine. The interesting point about these books, is not what they purport to say concerning history or whatever, but what they say about the writers. This is not accessible if you approach these books analytically and logically. It is ONLY accessible if you approach them as a human being. If you can do this, and you need a GREAT deal more sophistication than is required to prod rats in mazes and persuade pigeons to press buttons etc, if, as I say, you can do this, you gain the most amazing insights into the workings of the human mind. And part of the beauty is that, in the words of Wilfred Owen, you are accessing "truths that lie too deep for taint". In other words, if you are able to do this you are by-passing any attempt by people to lie and cheat and deceive such as to present themselves as they would like to be seen. You are going right into the mind beyond lies and deceit. It's just unfortunate that this sort of thing does require so much more sophistication because it puts it beyond the abilities of psychologists and indeed scientists in general. Poor psychologists, they'll have to stick with their rats in mazes, which unfortunately leads to no useful kinowledge or understanding of the human mind.
I'd really like to be able to approach someone as a human being. Can you teach me how to do this?
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#15 Post by Dave B » April 16th, 2014, 8:47 am

Just re-read my last post:
Few kids today are not educated or allowed to make "safe" mistakes in the way I was. The world is considered too dangerous - so they never really learn to handle it.
should have read:

"Kids today are not educated or allowed to make "safe" mistakes in the way I was. The world is considered too dangerous - so they never really learn to handle it."
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#16 Post by pantodragon » April 16th, 2014, 3:15 pm

Dave B wrote:
"Kids today are not educated or allowed to make "safe" mistakes in the way I was. The world is considered too dangerous - so they never really learn to handle it."
Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great loss, not to say extremely damaging, that kids are so cossetted. It is actually vital to their well-being that they are allowed to make mistakes and to handle the consequences and to not let a mistake instill such fear as to inhibit further exploration.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#17 Post by pantodragon » April 16th, 2014, 3:22 pm

jdc wrote: I'd really like to be able to approach someone as a human being. Can you teach me how to do this?
Got a few decades to spare, have you? And I'm not being facetious or insulting when I ask this. Even if you do, I don't. So no, I can't teach you. But you could try reading all my posts, that would be a start. But you've also really, really got to want to be able to "approach someone as a human being" otherwise your efforts will bhe wasted. This is not trivial. It is easy to say that you want to learn to "approach someone as a human being", but if in your heart of hearts you have another conflicting agenda, then it just won't work. And the truth is that most, if not all, people in our competitive society, DO have another agenda: winning. I'm afraid that quite simply, if you are competitive, then you have a serious impediment --- not insurmountable, but it is a HUGE impediment and would require special attention from another person.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#18 Post by Dave B » April 16th, 2014, 3:43 pm

pantodragon wrote:
Dave B wrote:
"Kids today are not educated or allowed to make "safe" mistakes in the way I was. The world is considered too dangerous - so they never really learn to handle it."
Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great loss, not to say extremely damaging, that kids are so cossetted. It is actually vital to their well-being that they are allowed to make mistakes and to handle the consequences and to not let a mistake instill such fear as to inhibit further exploration.
OK, but determining the degree of risk is a tight-rope. The young parents of today may never have had the benefit of taking risk themselves and so have no way of accurately judging risk to their kids.

Even some of the older parents round here will not let their kids walk to the primary school in case the have an accident or get kidnapped or something. It is too often house>car>school>car>house - the contact with the "outside world" can be minimal.

I remembered the beautifully dressed (probably) 8 year old girl with smartly done hair etc. standing at her front gate, watching the other kids playing on the grass in their jeans and sweatshirts . . . with one of the deepest expressions of longing on her face I have ever seen on a child. Probably "Mummy's/Daddy's Little Princess" who was not allowed to play with the rough kids. I was very sad for her at the time and often wonder how that kid developed.
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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#19 Post by pantodragon » April 16th, 2014, 3:59 pm

Dave B wrote:
OK, but determining the degree of risk is a tight-rope. The young parents of today may never have had the benefit of taking risk themselves and so have no way of accurately judging risk to their kids.

Even some of the older parents round here will not let their kids walk to the primary school in case the have an accident or get kidnapped or something. It is too often house>car>school>car>house - the contact with the "outside world" can be minimal.

I remembered the beautifully dressed (probably) 8 year old girl with smartly done hair etc. standing at her front gate, watching the other kids playing on the grass in their jeans and sweatshirts . . . with one of the deepest expressions of longing on her face I have ever seen on a child. Probably "Mummy's/Daddy's Little Princess" who was not allowed to play with the rough kids. I was very sad for her at the time and often wonder how that kid developed.
This is all together too reasonable, Dave. Nothing to argue with here.

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Re: Cave art or rave art? A cautionary tale.

#20 Post by Dave B » April 16th, 2014, 5:27 pm

But is your stance that the kids of today are at risk from the world and should be protected or are not allowed to experience risk and so develop suitable skills?
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