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UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

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coffee
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#21 Post by coffee » September 30th, 2014, 9:28 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Ah, coffee, but think how much humans invented before there was oil or even coal for power and stock chemicals! Take away all the fossil fuels and humans will soon (in historical time scales - a few generations for people) find natural, alternative resources - we are currently doing so. Yes, we are using oil etc. to produce the kit for "renewables" at the moment but once here are enough renewable sources of energy it may be self sustaining. Plastics are going to be a problem but I bet there are people working on that now, so far it is mainly stuff like environmentally nice packaging based on starches.
I am somewhat agree, but I am a cautious person so I only count the chicken when they have hatched
Yup, there will possibly be some testing times ahead - tell your son to read science fiction books with an emphasis on dystopian futures and study alternative technologies!
Yes, I will gladly do

Meanwhile, please check out the following

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29418983
http://www.populationmatters.org/

coffee
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#22 Post by coffee » October 31st, 2014, 9:28 am


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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#23 Post by getreal » October 31st, 2014, 1:26 pm

Why no mention of GMOs?

It seems the obvious way forward.

I'm not naive enough to think it will solv all out food problems, but it can make a huge difference.

I'm at a loss to understand the EUs reluctance to adopt them.

There is currently a large plant being developed in Macedonia for the production of ethanol ( have I got that bit right? It's eco fuel) from biomass. The biomass with be from GMO crops, as it's the most economical way to produce the quantities needed.

The fuel is not for macedonian consumption, but for export to the rest of Europe AFAIK.

If we at least grow some GM crops it will increase production and reduce the need for herbicides- better for the environment too.

All hail, Monsanto!

....now, where did I put those shares........
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Altfish
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#24 Post by Altfish » October 31st, 2014, 2:18 pm

coffee wrote:Farmland birds show rapid decline

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29728558
The trouble is with these reports is they don't really know what is causing the decline, they have ideas but no definitive solution.

This article blames it on Prozac..
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... y-suggests

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#25 Post by Dave B » October 31st, 2014, 2:47 pm

getreal wrote:Why no mention of GMOs?

It seems the obvious way forward.

I'm not naive enough to think it will solv all out food problems, but it can make a huge difference.

I'm at a loss to understand the EUs reluctance to adopt them.

There is currently a large plant being developed in Macedonia for the production of ethanol ( have I got that bit right? It's eco fuel) from biomass. The biomass with be from GMO crops, as it's the most economical way to produce the quantities needed.

The fuel is not for macedonian consumption, but for export to the rest of Europe AFAIK.

If we at least grow some GM crops it will increase production and reduce the need for herbicides- better for the environment too.

All hail, Monsanto!

....now, where did I put those shares........
I am leery of biofuels like ethanol, getreal. The amount of good quality land required to grow the feedstock plant could be better put towards growing crops for human consumption.

I am also not so afraid of GMOs, just the commercial problems of locking in farmers to specific manufacturers to buy new seed every year at whatever price the makers decide. If a crop could be devised that offered some kind of "fruit" for human consumption along with harvest-able inedible parts that were suitable for fermentation into ethanol that would be good, two hits from the same acreage. Perhaps there might even be a "left-over" that animals can eat or is suitable for composting?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Altfish
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#26 Post by Altfish » October 31st, 2014, 2:56 pm

Genetically modified foods have been with us for ages and in general they are good.

BUT...I do worry about these so called pest resistant crops. I worry because they mess with the insects that feed on them, which in turn messes with the birds, etc. that feed on the insects and so on.

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#27 Post by Dave B » October 31st, 2014, 3:30 pm

Another problem is that only a very tiny fraction of human and animal "output" is used for methane production. Some UK sewerage plants are entirely self powered electricity and gas heating-wise, but they could produce enough energy for local industry as well, possibly even housing. Nice little cluster of small firms round the local sewerage plant that would be ideal for such. I have to admit that I have never looked into the economics of this.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#28 Post by getreal » October 31st, 2014, 10:34 pm

Dave B wrote:
getreal wrote:Why no mention of GMOs?

It seems the obvious way forward.

I'm not naive enough to think it will solv all out food problems, but it can make a huge difference.

I'm at a loss to understand the EUs reluctance to adopt them.

There is currently a large plant being developed in Macedonia for the production of ethanol ( have I got that bit right? It's eco fuel) from biomass. The biomass with be from GMO crops, as it's the most economical way to produce the quantities needed.

The fuel is not for macedonian consumption, but for export to the rest of Europe AFAIK.

If we at least grow some GM crops it will increase production and reduce the need for herbicides- better for the environment too.

All hail, Monsanto!

....now, where did I put those shares........
I am leery of biofuels like ethanol, getreal. The amount of good quality land required to grow the feedstock plant could be better put towards growing crops for human consumption.

I am also not so afraid of GMOs, just the commercial problems of locking in farmers to specific manufacturers to buy new seed every year at whatever price the makers decide. If a crop could be devised that offered some kind of "fruit" for human consumption along with harvest-able inedible parts that were suitable for fermentation into ethanol that would be good, two hits from the same acreage. Perhaps there might even be a "left-over" that animals can eat or is suitable for composting?
It too have reservations about growing crops specifically for bio fuel.

Farmers a free to buy their seed for anywhere and aren't "locked in" to any specific producer. Not sure what you mean by this.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#29 Post by Dave B » November 1st, 2014, 9:40 am

Farmers a free to buy their seed for anywhere and aren't "locked in" to any specific producer. Not sure what you mean by this.
With standard stocks, yes getreal. All GMO stocks are patented, you are not allowed to grow them without permission. Many are also designed to be sterile and so no good for sewing for next year's crop, you have to purchase a whole load more at whatever price they charge.

Of course they would be stupid to charge more than, say, peasant farmers in the Far East can pay but may be an added burden to some communities even with, hopefully, improved yields.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#30 Post by getreal » November 1st, 2014, 10:10 am

Dave B wrote:
Farmers a free to buy their seed for anywhere and aren't "locked in" to any specific producer. Not sure what you mean by this.
With standard stocks, yes getreal. All GMO stocks are patented, you are not allowed to grow them without permission. Many are also designed to be sterile and so no good for sewing for next year's crop, you have to purchase a whole load more at whatever price they charge.

Of course they would be stupid to charge more than, say, peasant farmers in the Far East can pay but may be an added burden to some communities even with, hopefully, improved yields.

Sorry, I don't understand this.

Farmers don't save seed from crops to replant. For a start, as seeds are generally F1 hybrids, they wouldn't produce a consistent second crop. Even third world farmers mostly buy new seed each year

Aren't all hybrid seeds patented?

Even if only GMO seed is patented, there is boing to stop farmers buying different seeds from year to year. They are not "tied" to one producer. They can buy a us eyed they choose.

I don't think you need permission from the seed company to use their seeds. You just buy them and grow them, don't you? ( of course, not in countries where GMOs are proscribed). I haven't heard this before.
You may need permission from a relevant government department, but not the seed company.

http://m.english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/scie ... nt.html%23

As far as I can see, the only way forward for global food production is to embrace GMOs
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#31 Post by Alan H » November 1st, 2014, 10:27 am

This might be interesting: MAKING SENSE OF GM
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#32 Post by Dave B » November 1st, 2014, 10:29 am

I could be out of date, getreal, there was a programme some years ago where they were talking about small scale rice farmers in the Far East, South America and Africa who do, or did, use seedstock from previous harvests. It was one of the first arguments against GMOs that I remember, before people became concerned about "contamination" of surrounding crops. I cannot remember the number of farmers and others who were in commercial danger but I do remember it made a big impression on me.

Perhaps such small scale farmers have already been gulped up by larger concerns using hybrid varieties. On reflection there is also the matter that I would be wary of such reports now, so many are biased heavily in one direction or another.

But it would be interesting to see how the costs of production and the sale price alters (if at all) after GMOs are adopted and how it affects the small scale farmers and other employments.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#33 Post by getreal » November 1st, 2014, 11:05 am

There is so much dis- and -mis information about GMOs as you know. I have no illusions about big business, but it's not in their interests to price themselves out of the market. And ordinary seed is available for farmers- they are not forced to buy only GMO seed. In fact, I'd guess GMO seed may be more expensive- bit I don't know. I think it's a bit of a red herring to use poor third world farmers to bolster the argument against GMO as, unfortunately, they are probably not the market the big bio tech companies are aiming for.

I have posted this before, but the Golden Rice Project is an example where the benefits of GMO are undeniable, yet the hysterical "Frankenfoods" brigade has impeded it's implementation- for no good reason.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#34 Post by getreal » November 1st, 2014, 11:05 am

"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#35 Post by Dave B » November 1st, 2014, 11:32 am

Do I get the impression that Golden Rice is more of an academic project and a humanitarian movement rather than a Big Aggro commercial concern?

All in favour of that!

Yes, no company will price themselves out of a market but IIRC all companies are obliged to make the maximum possible return for their shareholders - even if that makes their customers poorer than they might be otherwise. Once locked into any system you are a bit of a hostage.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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getreal
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#36 Post by getreal » November 1st, 2014, 10:38 pm

Dave B wrote:
Do I get the impression that Golden Rice is more of an academic project and a humanitarian movement rather than a Big Aggro commercial concern?

All in favour of that!

Yes, no company will price themselves out of a market but IIRC all companies are obliged to make the maximum possible return for their shareholders - even if that makes their customers poorer than they might be otherwise. Once locked into any system you are a bit of a hostage.
So how are GMOs any different in that respect from ordinary seed? Ordinary-non GMO seed- is produced by Argo business too. Farmers have to buy the seed anyway.

Or am I missing something?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

coffee
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#37 Post by coffee » November 5th, 2014, 9:39 am

The trouble is with these reports is they don't really know what is causing the decline, they have ideas but no definitive solution.

This article blames it on Prozac..
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... y-suggests
What ever it is, it is likely to be the result of human activities that cause it, I blame the decline of nature on the non stop human expansion.

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Dave B
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#38 Post by Dave B » November 5th, 2014, 11:02 am

coffee wrote:
The trouble is with these reports is they don't really know what is causing the decline, they have ideas but no definitive solution.

This article blames it on Prozac..
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... y-suggests
What ever it is, it is likely to be the result of human activities that cause it, I blame the decline of nature on the non stop human expansion.
Unfortunately, Coffee, trying to curtail either/both "human activities" and/or "human expansion" would mean the imposition of very strict laws and punishments to ensure the measures were carried out. Every faction of humanity would claim to have valid rights that such measures as "one family, one child" and, "no more cars or air conditioners to be sold" can not apply to them. We don't have a world government and it would take a totalitarian one to apply such laws.

Whatever, humanity will suffer in some way, it might be said by some that it is better that some suffer now to protect the majority in the future - do you want to be one of the present sufferers, Coffee? I ask that without knowing of your present circumstances except that you have access to electricity and the Internet via complex modern technology that both play a possible part in creating the problem you post on.

We may have either distributed anarchy or a totalitarian world government in a century or three if the present curves reach their predicted points!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

coffee
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#39 Post by coffee » November 7th, 2014, 9:16 am

Unfortunately, Coffee, trying to curtail either/both "human activities" and/or "human expansion" would mean the imposition of very strict laws and punishments to ensure the measures were carried out. Every faction of humanity would claim to have valid rights that such measures as "one family, one child" and, "no more cars or air conditioners to be sold" can not apply to them. We don't have a world government and it would take a totalitarian one to apply such laws.

Whatever, humanity will suffer in some way, it might be said by some that it is better that some suffer now to protect the majority in the future - do you want to be one of the present sufferers, Coffee? I ask that without knowing of your present circumstances except that you have access to electricity and the Internet via complex modern technology that both play a possible part in creating the problem you post on.

We may have either distributed anarchy or a totalitarian world government in a century or three if the present curves reach their predicted points!
Yes, I consider my self to be fortunate, I have just enough to live on (but no luxury), but I also think that I can do something about it now by using my vote wisely to avoid over population in this country that is happening in other countries with terrible results both to human and nature/enviroment. Suffering already happening now in other part of the world and I believe that it will come to this country if nothing is done. The difference is the sooner we do something about it the more we can save what left of the enviroment/nature/species and also hopefully stop the problem. what I am for is that you can have quality of life over quantity of life that mean a good life with less people. I will only have one child if when i have a wife, in china many people get use to that idea now.

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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#40 Post by coffee » November 7th, 2014, 9:38 am

A bit of good news (I would like them to do even more for the environment)

Ministers vow not to transfer forests to housing body
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29925050

coffee
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Re: UK faces shortage of farmland by 2030

#41 Post by coffee » November 8th, 2014, 10:21 am

What does it mean for increasing population? - Scroll down and read on

http://populationmatters.org/2014/popul ... m_content=

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