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Why Obama Now

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Why Obama Now

#1 Post by Alan H » October 28th, 2012, 1:12 pm

Just over a week to go...

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Why Obama Now

#2 Post by animist » October 28th, 2012, 2:14 pm

it looks a very effective video, and maybe it is a sign of the times that, by US standards, it is so class-centred

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Dave B
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Re: Why Obama Now

#3 Post by Dave B » October 28th, 2012, 3:45 pm

animist wrote:it looks a very effective video, and maybe it is a sign of the times that, by US standards, it is so class-centred
Good point that, animist.

I remember there was a discussion on the radio some time ago where it was argued that America does have a historical and very well established class system, no matter how they try to hide it under other names. Can't remember the arguments now.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Jim
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Re: Why Obama Now

#4 Post by Jim » October 28th, 2012, 4:21 pm

It's the same-old, same-old except that more people are finally, perhaps, facing up to the fact that there isn't a simple trickle-down theory that works.

We should differentiate more between income and capital. And between the rich and wealth creators. Money is not simpy a possession, it is also a measure of personal power and a measure of real wealth. High inflation undermines the wealth of the poor more than that of the wealthy. Capitalism needs to be regulated and it is the how and why of that which should be at issue.

The value of a nations currency is the best measure of a country's economic success and wealth, in my view.

We are now in a debt crisis, but neither candidate really talks about that as there is no possibility they might agree on how to reduce the debt. People think that what they do about the economy will determine what happens about the debt. That means the problem (e.g. the fiscal cliff) is repeatedly shifted to a later date without any agreed plan to solve it for future generations.

Perhaps it has always been so. Look at the sinking fund. Eventually, rather than solve the debt problem, successive governments learned to live with it indefinitely. Income tax was originally intended as a temporary measure.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/history/taxhis1.htm
It makes me wonder if we are looking at an age when vastly higher levels of debt, both national and personal, are going to be the new norm and nobody has noticed yet.

Nick
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Re: Why Obama Now

#5 Post by Nick » October 28th, 2012, 5:19 pm

Some good stuff in there, but what a shame he confuses trickle-down with the Laffer curve. Two different things entirely. And his tale of Henry Ford is just plain wrong.

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Ken H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#6 Post by Ken H » October 28th, 2012, 6:38 pm

Nick wrote:Some good stuff in there, but what a shame he confuses trickle-down with the Laffer curve. Two different things entirely. And his tale of Henry Ford is just plain wrong.
Hey, this is an election year. Politicians are free to bend facts all they want! That's nothing though compared to Romney's outright lying whenever it suits his needs.
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Alan H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#7 Post by Alan H » October 28th, 2012, 6:45 pm

Excellent! I'd never heard it said like that before, but very good: let it pass through the hands of the poorer first - theirs are the hands that make millionaires.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Why Obama Now

#8 Post by Dave B » October 28th, 2012, 7:07 pm

This seems to relate in my mind what was said about the economy - many people have only just enough to pay for the necessities of life. Those that have a surplus are tending to save it against increasingly rainier days. The net result is that less money trickles anywhere in the economy, but that which does will end up in profits for someone who invest it in ways that might not benefit the economy. Those profits are possibly also protected against tax by some clever scheme or other . . .

No trickle down there then.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#9 Post by Alan H » October 28th, 2012, 9:45 pm

Joss Whedon (creator of the recent film, Firefly and the Buffy the vampire TV series) On Romney:

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Why Obama Now

#10 Post by Dave B » October 28th, 2012, 9:55 pm

Brilliant! But unfortunately possibly accurate . . .

With that sort of vision of that possible future for America and the actual popular demonstrations in China against big industry, corruption, poor working conditions etc. there are many of the ingredients in the more realistic, apocalyptic future-fiction stories I have read. With the two major world powers busy dealing with internal problems lots of holes may be left open for other "interests" to make hay, or even havoc!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#11 Post by Alan H » October 30th, 2012, 12:03 am

Bill Maher Warns Voters: If You Elect Romney,
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

stevenw888
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Re: Why Obama Now

#12 Post by stevenw888 » October 30th, 2012, 2:09 pm

+1 Bill! I'm with you! If only we Brits were allowed to vote in the US elections. And why aren't we? Those colonials are our direct descendants. And the fact that they once elected George Bush shows that they don't completely understand the ramifications of their actions.
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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Alan C.
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Re: Why Obama Now

#13 Post by Alan C. » October 30th, 2012, 2:40 pm

the fact that they once twice elected George Bush
:)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Nick
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Re: Why Obama Now

#14 Post by Nick » October 30th, 2012, 3:25 pm

Alan C. wrote:
the fact that they once twice thrice elected [a] George Bush
:)
:wink:

Nick
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Re: Why Obama Now

#15 Post by Nick » October 30th, 2012, 3:32 pm

I like Bill Maher :laughter: What a shame we no longer have Christopher Hitchens on his show.... :sad:

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Ken H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#16 Post by Ken H » October 30th, 2012, 3:53 pm

As that old idiom goes:
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Fool me thrice... ?

I'm not optimistic about this election. There's a possibilty that the House and the Senate may belong to the GOP this time around. (despite my best efforts!) :headbang:
This is one of the great social functions of science - to free people of superstition. - Steven Weinberg

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Why Obama Now

#17 Post by Nick » October 30th, 2012, 5:17 pm

The other idiom which may be useful is "Vote early and often!"

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Carja
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Re: Why Obama Now

#18 Post by Carja » October 30th, 2012, 5:45 pm

I've already cast my vote. A straight Democratic ticket. Republicans are no longer the "Grand Old Party". They have been self imploding and rotting from within since the religious right and the TeaParty reared their ugly heads. I agree on one thing in those videos....If Mitt wins, we are screwed. And if the Republicans ever get the presidency, the majority in the senate, plus the majority in the Congress - seniors, women, minorities, the poor, the sick, and children in need of a good education will be thrown under the bus to pay for more wars and wealthier wealthy. :cross:
Laugh often/love much;leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child,a garden patch,or a redeemed social condition;play w/enthusiasm & sing w/exultation;know even 1 life has breathed easier because you lived. This is success.B.A.Stanley

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Alan H
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Re: Why Obama Now

#19 Post by Alan H » October 30th, 2012, 6:07 pm

Carja wrote:I've already cast my vote. A straight Democratic ticket. Republicans are no longer the "Grand Old Party". They have been self imploding and rotting from within since the religious right and the TeaParty reared their ugly heads. I agree on one thing in those videos....If Mitt wins, we are screwed. And if the Republicans ever get the presidency, the majority in the senate, plus the majority in the Congress - seniors, women, minorities, the poor, the sick, and children in need of a good education will be thrown under the bus to pay for more wars and wealthier wealthy. :cross:
So, really just a mirror of the situation in the UK, then.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Why Obama Now

#20 Post by Dave B » October 30th, 2012, 8:43 pm

. . . good education will be thrown under the bus to pay for more wars and wealthier wealthy.
What chance that some of those "wars" will be internal, civil unrest, as suggested in one of the videos? It worries me in a country where there are already ethnic and colour problems and lots of guns any legislation that makes things worse for the minorities and the under-privileged may cause even more violence. Then if the reactionary right wing white supremacists get in on the act . . .
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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