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The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-meme

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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animist
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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#21 Post by animist » November 3rd, 2015, 9:46 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

thundril wrote:
animist wrote:
thundril wrote: The commercialisation, and the normalisation, of this poisonous view (of woman as existing for man's purpose) will not change as long as some men continue to think of female sexuality as a commodity to be bought and sold.
this assumes that the view that woman exists for man's purpose is bad. I don't think it is bad, as long as long as it is conducted properly - and of course, that it is also recognised that man exists for woman's purpose.
This is nonsensical, unless it means that everybody exists for everybody else's purpose; which is nice in a hippyish sort of way, but doesn't mean much. The idea I was condemning - namely that 'woman exists for man's purpose' is a one-sided prejudice; prevalent in all cultures (AFAICS) and unchallenged in most - even to the point of being an unconscious 'given'.. The idea that 'it is fine as long as it is matched by an opposite prejudice' cancels out any meaning the statement could possibly have.
I am really not sure how the word "prejudice" got in here. I was not talking about anything remotely resembling prejudice. I am frankly amazed that you fail to understand my meaning here, particularly since many of your past posts, IIRC, have stressed the essentially social nature of the human animal. Yes, call me hippyish if you like - whatever is wrong with that? I exist for you to an extent, and vice versa; our relationship is a kind of friendship based on a large number of shared values (but clearly on differences as well, which spice up our relationship). It is of course not sexual, but if it were, this would be an extra ingredient, not one which transformed the relationship

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#22 Post by Dave B » November 3rd, 2015, 9:47 pm

animist wrote:
...I would have thought it pretty predictable that the sex which has to penetrate, in some way, the other sex in order to achieve procreation would have the stronger sex drive.
And, in most "gregarious" animal species a tendency towards males having multiple mates - thus needing a strong mating drive, superior energy/strength, mostly larger size etc. It is often said that in basic functions we are not that far from our ancient relations.

Modern thought patterns ("modern" being in the last, say, 40 kiloyears in this respect) have perhaps encouraged more intellectual efforts to encourage some women to seek greater independance.

I wonder, do "mannish" women also generally have strong sex drives and if so is it perhaps moderated by their hormone balance?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#23 Post by animist » November 3rd, 2015, 10:22 pm

thundril wrote:What you seem determined to ignore is the centuries (millenia?) of male domination of women. Until this is addressed and redressed, there can be no realistic scenario of equals or equivalents.
To pretend otherwise is analogous to the pretence, open to us as white males, that racism can be just forgotten, written off as if it never happened.
but this is exactly what I am not ignoring, and indeed it was the basis of my thesis. I am trying to distinguish between two different factors which have worked together for most of human history, and then to imagine how things would be if one of these factors (male domination) were substantially curtailed, as any humanist would surely wish it to be. I believe that some progress has been made here, but I totally agree with you that we are a long way from completing this. The second part to my vision of the possible future of what is still called prostitution (though I think the growing use of "sex worker" rather than "prostitute" is a welcome sign of the times) involves my assertion that male sexual urges will always be stronger than female sexual urges and that therefore there will always be a place for paid sex work

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#24 Post by thundril » November 3rd, 2015, 10:34 pm

animist wrote:You are sadly simply wrong, but romantically and creditably so, about what sexual intercourse is: in itself it is just the necessary precursor to reproduction among animals, including humans.
In humans, most sexual contact has nothing whatsoever to do with reproduction, intentional or otherwise. Amongst complex social animals, such as canines and (especially) primates, sexual behaviour performs functions very different from the single function it fulfils in plants and in less complex animals.
In social groups, sexual acts, or acts mimicking sexual acts, are used for displaying relationships within a whole group, not just between the individuals directly partaking in the acts. Behaviours as varied as grooming, bonding, and dominance displays frequently include elements that resemble reproductive behaviour. But they are not reproductive behaviour. In humans, those sexual acts which most nearly resemble primate grooming are the acts which involve allowing intimate contact, as a display of trust. This type of behaviour necessarily requires mutual consent.
Sexual acts which allow one participant to exercise power over the other, or to display dominance, do not require mutual consent.
We humans are profoundly social animals. Our capacity to communicate is analogous to the swallow's flying prowess, the howler monkey's arboreal skills,or the cheetah's ability to run. It is not merely exceptional; it defines the species. Virtually all human interactions are centred on communication. Most of them involve some expression of status.
This is why a communication act as personal and immediate as sex cannot be considered without reference to the social-historical FACT of male domination of women over many centuries, and the almost exactly parallel FACT of the use of economic power as a means of control more generally (ie control over men, as well as women).
These FACTS are so ubiquitous that an uneducated or unthinking man could be forgiven for assuming that they are 'natural'. But you are neither uneducated not unthinking. What, then, is your excuse?

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#25 Post by thundril » November 3rd, 2015, 10:40 pm

animist wrote: The second part to my vision of the possible future of . . . prostitution involves my assertion that male sexual urges will always be stronger than female sexual urges and that therefore there will always be a place for paid sex work
We will have equality of the sexes when news of a woman's rape is greeted with as much horror and incomprehension as news of a man's rape is today.
Sadly, I suspect we will have grown beyond the use of money long before we get to that level of sexual equality.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#26 Post by animist » November 5th, 2015, 9:37 pm

thundril wrote:
animist wrote: The second part to my vision of the possible future of . . . prostitution involves my assertion that male sexual urges will always be stronger than female sexual urges and that therefore there will always be a place for paid sex work
We will have equality of the sexes when news of a woman's rape is greeted with as much horror and incomprehension as news of a man's rape is today.
Sadly, I suspect we will have grown beyond the use of money long before we get to that level of sexual equality.
what an idiotic combination of statements. Yes, when female rape excites as much shock as male rape among the populace (already works for me) that may indicate some change of attitudes, though I don't know what or how much: one might rather claim that this change indicates equal tolerance of gay and straight sexuality. Please leave money out of this - it adds nothing to the topic of rape; in fact, it is especially inappropriate, since rape does not entail monetary exchange. Focus!

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#27 Post by animist » November 5th, 2015, 9:49 pm

thundril wrote:In humans, most sexual contact has nothing whatsoever to do with reproduction, intentional or otherwise. Amongst complex social animals, such as canines and (especially) primates, sexual behaviour performs functions very different from the single function it fulfils in plants and in less complex animals.
yes indeed, but I note that you have moved from "sexual intercourse" to "sexual contact"
thundril wrote: In social groups, sexual acts, or acts mimicking sexual acts, are used for displaying relationships within a whole group, not just between the individuals directly partaking in the acts. Behaviours as varied as grooming, bonding, and dominance displays frequently include elements that resemble reproductive behaviour. But they are not reproductive behaviour. In humans, those sexual acts which most nearly resemble primate grooming are the acts which involve allowing intimate contact, as a display of trust. This type of behaviour necessarily requires mutual consent.
Sexual acts which allow one participant to exercise power over the other, or to display dominance, do not require mutual consent.
We humans are profoundly social animals. Our capacity to communicate is analogous to the swallow's flying prowess, the howler monkey's arboreal skills,or the cheetah's ability to run. It is not merely exceptional; it defines the species. Virtually all human interactions are centred on communication. Most of them involve some expression of status.
This is why a communication act as personal and immediate as sex cannot be considered without reference to the social-historical FACT of male domination of women over many centuries, and the almost exactly parallel FACT of the use of economic power as a means of control more generally (ie control over men, as well as women).
These FACTS are so ubiquitous that an uneducated or unthinking man could be forgiven for assuming that they are 'natural'. But you are neither uneducated not unthinking. What, then, is your excuse?
they ain't FACTS, mate, they are poorly expressed half-truths; having read these sentences many time over, I am unable to discern much logic in them (but hey, you will retort that is my failing, won't you?). You seem not to want or be able to engage with much of that I say, which confirms my initial reluctance to start this topic; but since you actively encouraged me to do so, I think you should try a bit harder to answer me on some points. For instance, on specifics, how dare you condemn women who may use their sexuality in some way for economic advantage as betraying their "sisters"? None of us is responsible in the way that you imply for others who happen to be of the same sex, or any other social grouping

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#28 Post by thundril » November 5th, 2015, 11:27 pm

animist wrote:
thundril wrote:
animist wrote: The second part to my vision of the possible future of . . . prostitution involves my assertion that male sexual urges will always be stronger than female sexual urges and that therefore there will always be a place for paid sex work
We will have equality of the sexes when news of a woman's rape is greeted with as much horror and incomprehension as news of a man's rape is today.
Sadly, I suspect we will have grown beyond the use of money long before we get to that level of sexual equality.
what an idiotic combination of statements. Yes, when female rape excites as much shock as male rape
Men rape women every hour of every day; most other men are hardly shocked by it. When a man rapes another man, we are horrified and completely baffled. Why are we (men) more appalled when a man is raped than when a woman is raped? Why is the rape of a woman regarded as in some way comprehensible? If we ever get to the point where the rape of a woman is recognised as an offence just as repellent, incomprehensible and utterly forbidden as the rape of a man, then we will have sexual equality. In a genuinely equal society, negotiations involving sexual acts and other 'favours' can be conducted on a truly equal basis.
Please leave money out of this - it adds nothing to the topic of rape; in fact, it is especially inappropriate, since rape does not entail monetary exchange. Focus!
The centre of my opposition to prostitution is this: Men exercise control over women for their own gratification, aggrandisement, social standing, and various other purposes that have nothing to do with the woman's intentions for her own life. The means of control available include ownership of land, housing, domination of the political and economic spheres, as well as brute violence or the threat of violence. Some men also use these same means (wealth and other forms of power) for exactly the same purposes vis a vis other men.
As long as men are willing to pay money to 'persuade' women to engage in sexual acts they would otherwise choose not to egage in, there will be trafficking and sex slavery. More insidiously, (and therefore perhaps more intractibly) there will be a continuation of the deep-laid assumption that woman's role in life is to service men's needs, and men's role towards women is simply to employ them.
How the hell am I supposed to leave money out of a debate about prostitution? THINK!

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#29 Post by Nick » November 5th, 2015, 11:58 pm

And women never take advantage of men, thundril? I'm not claiming an equality, but women should have control over their own bodies, which, if it is to mean anything, includes the right to use it how they wish.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#30 Post by thundril » November 6th, 2015, 1:01 am

animist wrote:
thundril wrote:In humans, most sexual contact has nothing whatsoever to do with reproduction, intentional or otherwise. Amongst complex social animals, such as canines and (especially) primates, sexual behaviour performs functions very different from the single function it fulfils in plants and in less complex animals.
yes indeed, but I note that you have moved from "sexual intercourse" to "sexual contact".
OK I was expanding the discussion to include other forms of sexual contact. I had presumed your idea of prostitution would already have included some other forms. (If not, what would you call paying someone for a blowjob?)
Rats, dogs and most of the wild canines, sheep, goats and some species of deer, and almost all primates, use various forms of sexual contact including full penetration of anus or vagina, in establishing and reinforcing status and alliance relations.
thundril wrote:
. . .
a communication act as personal and immediate as sex cannot be considered without reference to the social-historical FACT of male domination of women over many centuries, and the almost exactly parallel FACT of the use of economic power as a means of control more generally (ie control over men, as well as women).
they ain't FACTS, mate, they are poorly expressed half-truths; having read these sentences many time over, I am unable to discern much logic in them

1. Men have dominated and controlled, bought sold and traded girls and women for very many centuries, across almost all humans societies. (Can you show why you think this is not a fact?)
2. Some men have exercised power over some other men, and over virtually ALL women, through the ownership and control of terrain, food, houses and all other means of living in peace and safety. This has been the case in almost all European and Asian societies, and a large percentage of African societies, for very many centuries. (Can you show why you think this is not a fact? Otherwise, can you show that this ownership and control of the means of production and survival is not economic?)
You seem not to want or be able to engage with much of that I say,
Oh, I want to engage, alright. I just don't agree with you.
. . . how dare you condemn women who may use their sexuality in some way for economic advantage as betraying their "sisters"? None of us is responsible in the way that you imply for others who happen to be of the same sex, or any other social grouping
My arguments are based on what I think. I 'dare' to say what I think because I am not a coward.
The girls and women who are trafficked across every border, to be pimped out in every city in the world, suffer their fate because there is money in it for their pimps and traffickers. Women (and I know two or three ) who engage in sexual commerce when they have the education, and other social advantages, to make a perfectly good living in other ways, are reinforcing the idea that it is right and proper for men to use their economic advantage to oblige girls and women to engage in acts which they would otherwise not choose to engage in.

The attrition rate amongst sexworkers from suicide, murder, drug addiction, diseases, imprisonment, mental breakdown, needs to be understood. The trade is foul, and it has no justification. It serves only the interest of men who think it is alright to use whatever power is available to them to get what they cannot otherwise have, from women who do not wish to give them those 'favours' freely.
If this is not rape, please redefine rape for me.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#31 Post by Nick » November 6th, 2015, 1:22 am

thundril wrote:
The attrition rate amongst sexworkers from suicide, murder, drug addiction, diseases, imprisonment, mental breakdown, needs to be understood. The trade is foul, and it has no justification. It serves only the interest of men who think it is alright to use whatever power is available to them to get what they cannot otherwise have, from women who do not wish to give them those 'favours' freely.
If this is not rape, please redefine rape for me.
Rape involves lack of consent. Why should women not charge for sex, if they want to? I'm not denying the effects on many participants in the sex industry, nor am I defending trafficking, nor so many of the circumstances which lead to prostitution, but if a person consents to sex, without coercion, even if it just for money, then that is not rape. It is control over ones own body.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#32 Post by thundril » November 6th, 2015, 2:56 am

Nick wrote:Rape involves lack of consent. Why should women not charge for sex, if they want to? I'm not denying the effects on many participants in the sex industry, nor am I defending trafficking, nor so many of the circumstances which lead to prostitution, but if a person consents to sex, without coercion, even if it just for money, then that is not rape. It is control over ones own body.
All perfectly true and reasonable Nick, if one looks on the individual transaction, without reference to the social structure in which the transaction takes place. In this, as in so many otrher political/ethical matters, context is vital.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#33 Post by animist » November 7th, 2015, 11:59 am

thundril wrote:
Nick wrote:Rape involves lack of consent. Why should women not charge for sex, if they want to? I'm not denying the effects on many participants in the sex industry, nor am I defending trafficking, nor so many of the circumstances which lead to prostitution, but if a person consents to sex, without coercion, even if it just for money, then that is not rape. It is control over ones own body.
All perfectly true and reasonable Nick, if one looks on the individual transaction, without reference to the social structure in which the transaction takes place. In this, as in so many otrher political/ethical matters, context is vital.
"context is vital". A good phrase no doubt, but it takes no account of real life. Women are at least half of the global population. They are not sisters in any meaningful way, any more than all men are brothers. To demand that no woman ever takes advantage of the appeal of her body to men in order to enhance her income, simply because thousands of miles away in space and in social context, other women are being abused by other men, is grossly ludicrous. Actually, it is sexist, because it imposes a different, and greater, moral obligation on women as compared with men

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#34 Post by animist » November 7th, 2015, 12:28 pm

thundril wrote: How the hell am I supposed to leave money out of a debate about prostitution? THINK!
indeed so, but what you have done is to introduce the concept of rape into my original post, which was concerned only with prostitution. This is why you are not really engaging with me. Your passion for female empowerment, which actually I share and have done so for as long as I can remember, seems to be blinding you. Your mind seems to operate in a set of equivalences: "prostitution equals exploitation equals domination equals rape". Each of these equations has some truth, but each of them also contains fallacies, which is why I used the phrase "half-truths" in reference to one of your posts

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#35 Post by thundril » November 7th, 2015, 8:36 pm

animist wrote:
thundril wrote:
Nick wrote:Rape involves lack of consent. Why should women not charge for sex, if they want to? I'm not denying the effects on many participants in the sex industry, nor am I defending trafficking, nor so many of the circumstances which lead to prostitution, but if a person consents to sex, without coercion, even if it just for money, then that is not rape. It is control over ones own body.
All perfectly true and reasonable Nick, if one looks on the individual transaction, without reference to the social structure in which the transaction takes place. In this, as in so many otrher political/ethical matters, context is vital.
"context is vital". A good phrase no doubt, but it takes no account of real life. Women are at least half of the global population. They are not sisters in any meaningful way, any more than all men are brothers. To demand that no woman ever takes advantage of the appeal of her body to men in order to enhance her income, simply because thousands of miles away in space and in social context, other women are being abused by other men, is grossly ludicrous.
Astonished! Utterly astonished that someone with your educational background thinks that the violent pimping of girls and women only happens "thousands of miles away in space and in social context". Do some research, for fuck's sake. This is happening very close to where you live. Quite possibly in your street.
Actually, it is sexist, because it imposes a different, and greater, moral obligation on women as compared with men
If I assumed, or wanted, any authority over women, or the choices women make, then my statements about the effect of 'voluntary' prostitution would indeed constitute a 'demand'. As I make no such claim, it is not a demand. It is merely my estimate of the effect one kind of action has on a serious societal problem. There is no doubt the the oppression of women worldwide is an egregious problem. Normalising the male practice of hiring women's bodies for sexual gratification normalises also the market in the bodies of girls and women who have no choice. It also normalises the actions of men who use such women without regard to their lack of choice.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#36 Post by thundril » November 7th, 2015, 8:55 pm

animist wrote:
thundril wrote: How the hell am I supposed to leave money out of a debate about prostitution? THINK!
indeed so, but what you have done is to introduce the concept of rape into my original post, which was concerned only with prostitution. This is why you are not really engaging with me. Your passion for female empowerment, which actually I share and have done so for as long as I can remember, seems to be blinding you. Your mind seems to operate in a set of equivalences: "prostitution equals exploitation equals domination equals rape". Each of these equations has some truth, but each of them also contains fallacies, which is why I used the phrase "half-truths" in reference to one of your posts
Yes if you read these connections as equivalents, that would be fallacious. But I have not presented them as equivalents. At most I have presented them as different degrees of the same type of oppression.
The voluntary offering and purchase of sexual 'favours' masks and normalises the business of coercive prostitution, which (I suggest) constitutes actual rape.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#37 Post by animist » November 8th, 2015, 9:55 am

thundril wrote:
animist wrote:"context is vital". A good phrase no doubt, but it takes no account of real life. Women are at least half of the global population. They are not sisters in any meaningful way, any more than all men are brothers. To demand that no woman ever takes advantage of the appeal of her body to men in order to enhance her income, simply because thousands of miles away in space and in social context, other women are being abused by other men, is grossly ludicrous.
Astonished! Utterly astonished that someone with your educational background thinks that the violent pimping of girls and women only happens "thousands of miles away in space and in social context". Do some research, for fuck's sake. This is happening very close to where you live. Quite possibly in your street.
I doubt that research on pimping in Fairlawn Drive has been documented, but of course you are right here to the extent that I should have said "or" rather than "and", and we all know about the pimping rings among several UK communities. This does not affect the truth of what I said. Women are not sisters: they know little about the lives of other women outside their own circles, and neither do the men who might relieve their sexual urges with female acquaintances on a quasi-commercial basis know much about the disgusting behaviour of other men in other places; even if they do know a bit, there is no real connexion between their lives and these other lives. All relationships are unique in some sense, and the nugget of my "vision" is for a more open and benign attitude to sexuality which recognises that the worlds of sexual contact and commerce need not be rigidly separated. To insist that they are risks a rather puritanical and over-romantic view of sex, IMO. I will try and deal with your use of the word "normalisation" in a while

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#38 Post by animist » November 8th, 2015, 3:06 pm

Dave B wrote:animist wrote:
...I would have thought it pretty predictable that the sex which has to penetrate, in some way, the other sex in order to achieve procreation would have the stronger sex drive.
And, in most "gregarious" animal species a tendency towards males having multiple mates - thus needing a strong mating drive, superior energy/strength, mostly larger size etc. It is often said that in basic functions we are not that far from our ancient relations.
I think that insofar this is true, it is part of the problem, and that male domination is largely due simply (well not really simply, but ultimately and complexly) to greater physical size and strength. Just imagine otherwise: that human males were actually somewhat smaller and weaker than females, but of similar intelligence and with - I believe inevitably - a higher sex drive consequent simply on the fact of being male. I believe that exchange of sex for money or some other inducement would probably still take place, but that it would lack all the dreadful characteristics which so offend thundril (and rightly so)

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#39 Post by thundril » November 8th, 2015, 3:09 pm

animist wrote: Women are not sisters:
I used the word sisters in a particular sense, which I assumed you would recognise and accept. I assumed wrong. I'll withdraw it so as not to upset you unnecessarily
they know little about the lives of other women outside their own circles,
I get the impression that some do, and some don't. Where do you derive your information?
and neither do the men . . . know much about the disgusting behaviour of other men in other places;
I get the impression that some do, and some don't. Where do you derive your information?
even if they do know a bit, there is no real connexion between their lives and these other lives.
Many men and women believe their lives are disconnected from other lives. Modern consumer culture depends on that degree of alienation.
. . . the nugget of my "vision" is for a more open and benign attitude to sexuality which recognises that the worlds of sexual contact and commerce need not be rigidly separated.
I have nowhere proposed that they should be 'rigidly separated'. I have merely alluded to the suffering which is involved in their present, and historical, juxtaposition.

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#40 Post by thundril » November 8th, 2015, 4:44 pm

animist wrote: . . . . that male domination is largely due simply (well not really simply, but ultimately and complexly) to greater physical size and strength.
This is 'not even wrong'. . .
Some factors contributing to the current situation, in which men maintain very considerable power over women include
1. Historically, women have been confined to homestead and childrearing, while men have claimed control of territory, and have engaged more directly in trade, power-politics, and other suchy competition for social status.. Pre-historically, males tended to hunt while females foraged, keeping the children with them. (Probably because the children were too noisy to take on stealthy hunting for relatively small game, and too little to take on the less stealthy long-distance chases after larger game).
2. A major driver of evolutionary intelligence in primates has been the use of social skill in gaining social status, and thereby access to mates. This is true in almost all primates, and applies equally to males and to females. In the human, this striving for social status has taken the form, over the last few millenia, of control of land and other property.
3. The male human has no instinctive means of distinguishing between 'his own' offspring and the offspring of other males. This has led to a need to control women's sexual activity, as the only (or at least the simplest) way of minimising the 'risk' of expending energy on raising 'someone else's' child. Once male property began to be significant in establishing social status, the question of inheritance brought with it a further requirement to ensure that property, particulary land, went to one's own sons.

In human violence, the difference in physical size is less significant than testosterone aggression, and in modern technological societies size is rendered less significant still by the availability of weapons.

It is true that the males of most herd or group species tend to be more aggressive than the females. This has an evolutionary benefit. In mammals, males and females are born in roughly equal numbers, but most of the males are unnecessary for reproduction. Species survive more successfully if the males perform some other useful role which counterbalances their consumption of so much of the available food.
In some species, particularly those that move in herds or groups, this compensatory role has been a tendency to move towards danger, instead of away from it. If a herd loses 20 percent of its females, it loses 20 percent of its reproductive capacity. If it loses 20 percent of its males, the reproductive rate will probably not be affected. One consequence of this has been that males engage in competitive displays of aggression, with the 'winner' being selected by ovulating females. Larger males would have a considerable advantage over the smaller in these combats.. The sons of such mating are likely to continue their father's self-risking behaviour, to the benefit of the whole group. They are also likely to become, over the long term, noticeably larger than the females.
This sexual dimorphism continues in some species, even when direct combat has been replaced with other, more complex selection processes, such as primate status-play. Consider the male gorilla.


PS: Among many species, (for example raptors) the male is often noticeably smaller than the female. Any of your proposed biological explanations for increased sex-drive in the male would apply to these species also. Size is really quite unimportant. (I would say that, wouldn't I?) :wink:

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Re: The Future of the 'The future of the..(if any)' title-me

#41 Post by thundril » November 8th, 2015, 6:20 pm

animist wrote:"context is vital". A good phrase no doubt, but it takes no account of real life.
:puzzled:
What do you suppose 'context' means?

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