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In or out?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#41 Post by Alan H » March 22nd, 2016, 1:23 am

Latest post of the previous page:

John Major: Voting to leave will poison Europe and divide West
This June, the UK will vote upon whether to leave or remain in the EU. This vote will be momentous. It will decide Britain’s place in the world for generations to come.

There are many positive reasons for membership.

When we joined the EU we were the “sick man” of Europe: today, as a result of our domestic reforms and membership of the European Single Market, we have the best performing economy in Europe.

Within the next 20 years – on present policies, and with continuing full access to the Single Market – the UK is likely to be the biggest economy in Europe.

And surely – in a global market drawing ever closer together – it is verging on the reckless for us to seek divorce from the world’s pre-eminent trading bloc?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: In or out?

#42 Post by Nick » March 22nd, 2016, 8:05 am

How nice to see you supporting Tory policy, Alan. :D

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#43 Post by Dave B » March 22nd, 2016, 8:36 am

Since when was merely reporting another's words the same as support for them?

:sad2:

But, I suppose, like Tescos (who they probably take policy notes from) even the Tories can't get it wrong every time.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#44 Post by animist » March 22nd, 2016, 4:56 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:Since the leavers are advocating something that clearly will be a huge upheaval and change, the onus is on them to provide good evidence and reasoned argument for a change to the status quo.
No it's not.
Yes it is.
I've not seen any.
Then you haven't been looking.
Yes I have, but the onus is still on those that want to change to provide reason and evidence for that change. But maybe you're confusing rhetoric and suchlike for good evidence?
Just one example: the introduction of the Euro has directly contributed to the mass unemployment of millions of EU citizens. If that is an example of the benefits of being in the EU, then we should be very concerned for the future.
Case in point.
Nick, I have to say that you surprise me with your stance on the vote. I think you are somewhat a economaniac: you pounce on some economic feature of an issue and then magnify it. The UK ain't in the Eurozone, so, even assuming you are right when you talk about the latter, so what? Alan H is dead right. It is up to the Brexiters to indicate some clear advantage of leaving this strange organisation, and I think that most of these Brexiters also merit another X - that of xenophobia. Better the devil you know: I am pretty sure that this will "inspire" (scarcely the mot juste, but still, it will motivate) yer average apathetic Brit voter when the time comes (three months tomorrow)

Manuel
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Re: In or out?

#45 Post by Manuel » March 22nd, 2016, 8:54 pm

The advantage of leaving for me is better democracy for people of the UK. Europe can create policy which affects the UK but which we have no or very little say over.

I think there's been a lot of scaremongering in the media and politics regarding the economy if we were to leave and I don't believe much of it. I think the UK could well flourish outside the EU, even be better off. Businesses will still trade.

I also see Europe as pretty inefficient and poorly organised. You only have to look as far as the handing of the Middle East and N.African migration of late. Crisis and chaos, no integrated strategy, each country having to fend for themselves. What is the EU for if not to be able to manage a situation like that fairly. It seems to be the EU when it suits, and individual countries at other times.

Immigration is usually a fair way down the list of priorities for me, but the UK is suffering a problem of population vs infrastructure at the moment (house prices/rents/travel/hospitals/GP services/schools etc) and I cannot see this getting better without an immigration policy which suits the UK's needs. It's a UK-selfish approach, and it doesn't sit very well with me as I'm not much of one for patriotism, but there it is.

That's my current view, but I'm listening to all sides. As others have said I think the "debate" in the media could be a lot more informative...hopefully as time goes on things will become clearer.

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: In or out?

#46 Post by Nick » March 23rd, 2016, 11:15 am

animist wrote: Nick, I have to say that you surprise me with your stance on the vote.
I wouldn't want to be entirely predictable, animist! :D
I think you are somewhat a economaniac:
I tend to think that economics matters, that's all. And I don't mean money. I mean how we can achieve the things we want to achieve with the resources we have.
you pounce on some economic feature of an issue and then magnify it.
Can one not take an example without pouncing? And I don't think the single currency is just "some economic feature". It strikes me as rather more relevant and important than that.
The UK ain't in the Eurozone, so, even assuming you are right when you talk about the latter, so what?
So, more than half of the EU are stuck in a dysfunctional currency union, which has thrown millions out of work. And the EU has no plan how to address this issue, except by inflicting pain on the most disadvantaged. Whatever happens, the present arrangements aren't working. There are two options: either further integration, which means less democracy, less accountability, less choice, or rolling back the supra-state to increase democracy accountability and choice, and reduce the stresses of the current system. To say that this is irrelevant to the UK is crazy. Do we want to be part of an organisation which has a political agenda which has produced such horrendous results. And don't forget, this is a dynamic situation, not a static one. Their direction of travel, at the moment, is to centralise power away from people.

A parallel example would be the attitude of the Greens. Never mind whether we are in favour of less pollution, or more paternity rights, the Greens are endorsing EU membership explicitly because they think that the democracy in this country might produce an answer they don't like. And yet, just suppose the EU came to adopt a policy they don't like, they'd be the first to bleat about talk of accountability and democracy.
Alan H is dead right. It is up to the Brexiters to indicate some clear advantage of leaving this strange organisation, and I think that most of these Brexiters also merit another X - that of xenophobia. Better the devil you know: I am pretty sure that this will "inspire" (scarcely the mot juste, but still, it will motivate) yer average apathetic Brit voter when the time comes (three months tomorrow)
Oh, come, come! On that basis we should stick with the Tories, as Labour have shown no clear advantage in voting for them. And as a reposte to your xenophobic jibe, we might as well accuse the left of greed and envy for other people's assets. Not a good basis for discussion.

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#47 Post by animist » March 23rd, 2016, 9:02 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H is dead right. It is up to the Brexiters to indicate some clear advantage of leaving this strange organisation, and I think that most of these Brexiters also merit another X - that of xenophobia. Better the devil you know: I am pretty sure that this will "inspire" (scarcely the mot juste, but still, it will motivate) yer average apathetic Brit voter when the time comes (three months tomorrow)
Oh, come, come! On that basis we should stick with the Tories, as Labour have shown no clear advantage in voting for them. And as a reposte to your xenophobic jibe, we might as well accuse the left of greed and envy for other people's assets. Not a good basis for discussion.
what the hell have your comments to do with what I said? I did not mention party politics or the politics of inequality, Get a grip!

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#48 Post by animist » March 23rd, 2016, 9:18 pm

Manuel wrote:The advantage of leaving for me is better democracy for people of the UK. Europe can create policy which affects the UK but which we have no or very little say over.

I think there's been a lot of scaremongering in the media and politics regarding the economy if we were to leave and I don't believe much of it. I think the UK could well flourish outside the EU, even be better off. Businesses will still trade.

I also see Europe as pretty inefficient and poorly organised. You only have to look as far as the handing of the Middle East and N.African migration of late. Crisis and chaos, no integrated strategy, each country having to fend for themselves. What is the EU for if not to be able to manage a situation like that fairly. It seems to be the EU when it suits, and individual countries at other times.

Immigration is usually a fair way down the list of priorities for me, but the UK is suffering a problem of population vs infrastructure at the moment (house prices/rents/travel/hospitals/GP services/schools etc) and I cannot see this getting better without an immigration policy which suits the UK's needs. It's a UK-selfish approach, and it doesn't sit very well with me as I'm not much of one for patriotism, but there it is.

That's my current view, but I'm listening to all sides. As others have said I think the "debate" in the media could be a lot more informative...hopefully as time goes on things will become clearer.
you may believe that the UK can flourish outside the EU, but the fact remains that to vote Brexit is to make a leap in the dark. Why precisely do you think we might be better off on our own? We will still be heavily tied up with Europe, as are countries like Norway and Switzerland which the Brexiters like to cite as successful non-members. I see a Brexit vote as leading to huge dollops of economic and political chaos, both of them bad for business, so what's your faith in Brexit based on? As for the refugee problem, how would leaving the EU help? There may be a lack of strategy, but this will be exacerbated if Britain leaves, surely. Again, on immigration, the short-term problems of immigration mask the fact that Britain's ageing and prosperous population does actually require lot of work-ready immigrants. Why do you think that the politically conservative but astute German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is so keen to welcome immigrants? Answer is that Germany's population is even more dependant on new blood from outside than we are. At the risk of making an odd analogy, I see the "in or out" decision as akin to the tackling the problem of God's existence. if we vote to stay in Europe we are in effect deciding to stick with a reasonably known option - with pros and cons with which we are familiar over the last 40 years. If, OTOH, we elect for a radically new course of action, Brexit, we are deciding to embark on something of an unknown. This unknown future is very much an unproven entity, just as God is! Don't be a believer, be a sceptic!

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#49 Post by Dave B » March 23rd, 2016, 9:29 pm

On the radio earlier it was said that, balancing our costs with what we get back, the EU costs us about £280 per year per household.

I pay £750 per year council tax (after single occupancy discount) and about £800 per year income tax., who knows how much in CAT (Cost Added Tax, the honest name for VAT from my point of view). Can anyone tell me how much I would save by coming out. Can't seem to tind that figure from a reliable (i.e. non-political) source as yet.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#50 Post by Alan H » March 23rd, 2016, 10:17 pm

animist wrote:
Manuel wrote:The advantage of leaving for me is better democracy for people of the UK. Europe can create policy which affects the UK but which we have no or very little say over.

I think there's been a lot of scaremongering in the media and politics regarding the economy if we were to leave and I don't believe much of it. I think the UK could well flourish outside the EU, even be better off. Businesses will still trade.

I also see Europe as pretty inefficient and poorly organised. You only have to look as far as the handing of the Middle East and N.African migration of late. Crisis and chaos, no integrated strategy, each country having to fend for themselves. What is the EU for if not to be able to manage a situation like that fairly. It seems to be the EU when it suits, and individual countries at other times.

Immigration is usually a fair way down the list of priorities for me, but the UK is suffering a problem of population vs infrastructure at the moment (house prices/rents/travel/hospitals/GP services/schools etc) and I cannot see this getting better without an immigration policy which suits the UK's needs. It's a UK-selfish approach, and it doesn't sit very well with me as I'm not much of one for patriotism, but there it is.

That's my current view, but I'm listening to all sides. As others have said I think the "debate" in the media could be a lot more informative...hopefully as time goes on things will become clearer.
you may believe that the UK can flourish outside the EU, but the fact remains that to vote Brexit is to make a leap in the dark. Why precisely do you think we might be better off on our own? We will still be heavily tied up with Europe, as are countries like Norway and Switzerland which the Brexiters like to cite as successful non-members. I see a Brexit vote as leading to huge dollops of economic and political chaos, both of them bad for business, so what's your faith in Brexit based on? As for the refugee problem, how would leaving the EU help? There may be a lack of strategy, but this will be exacerbated if Britain leaves, surely. Again, on immigration, the short-term problems of immigration mask the fact that Britain's ageing and prosperous population does actually require lot of work-ready immigrants. Why do you think that the politically conservative but astute German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is so keen to welcome immigrants? Answer is that Germany's population is even more dependant on new blood from outside than we are. At the risk of making an odd analogy, I see the "in or out" decision as akin to the tackling the problem of God's existence. if we vote to stay in Europe we are in effect deciding to stick with a reasonably known option - with pros and cons with which we are familiar over the last 40 years. If, OTOH, we elect for a radically new course of action, Brexit, we are deciding to embark on something of an unknown. This unknown future is very much an unproven entity, just as God is! Don't be a believer, be a sceptic!
The problems with following the Norway or Switzerland models were highlighted in the LSE discussion paper I posted earlier: Norway is a member of the EEA and has (essentially) the same trading situation as EU members do, but has no say in making them. Switzerland has various agreements with the EU, but again, essentially has no say in them. Unless the Brexiters have some up with something new recently, that seems to leave going it alone and being a member of the WTO.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#51 Post by Alan H » March 23rd, 2016, 10:21 pm

Dave B wrote:On the radio earlier it was said that, balancing our costs with what we get back, the EU costs us about £280 per year per household.

I pay £750 per year council tax (after single occupancy discount) and about £800 per year income tax., who knows how much in CAT (Cost Added Tax, the honest name for VAT from my point of view). Can anyone tell me how much I would save by coming out. Can't seem to tind that figure from a reliable (i.e. non-political) source as yet.
This is worth reading, from FullFact: The UK's EU membership fee.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#52 Post by Dave B » March 23rd, 2016, 10:27 pm

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:On the radio earlier it was said that, balancing our costs with what we get back, the EU costs us about £280 per year per household.

I pay £750 per year council tax (after single occupancy discount) and about £800 per year income tax., who knows how much in CAT (Cost Added Tax, the honest name for VAT from my point of view). Can anyone tell me how much I would save by coming out. Can't seem to tind that figure from a reliable (i.e. non-political) source as yet.
This is worth reading, from FullFact: The UK's EU membership fee.
Thanks, Alan, will read it when brain awake.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#53 Post by animist » May 14th, 2016, 10:33 pm

while many people are sick of the whole referendum debate, I love it. My main fun derives from the stupidity of the Brexiters. They have little idea of what they want, all they know is that they hate the EU and seem not to worry what the results of a Leave vote might be. Of course the country may well be haemorrhaging jobs and foreign investment (not to mention Scottish secession) while our brilliant new wave of politicians (led presumably by Boris Johnson) explore and evaluate the different options, but hey, so what? Britain is Great again, innit?

The so-called "Canadian option" is at least one attempt to outline some post-Brexit arrangement (see below)
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/wha ... ut-brexit/

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#54 Post by Dave B » May 15th, 2016, 10:43 am

I'm an inner, if only because the whole string of governments gave fu'd our economy so that it is no longer balanced - don't want to think of us as another Panama or whatever.

For me this has simply provided more than ample proof that politicians are the worst variety of bufoon to have in charge.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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jaywhat
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Re: In or out?

#55 Post by jaywhat » May 16th, 2016, 5:57 am

IMHO we should stay in.

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#56 Post by Dave B » May 16th, 2016, 8:35 am

jaywhat wrote:IMHO we should stay in.
I agree, just hoping that the European governmental system gets sorted out. But could still be worse outside - especially if Trump triumphs.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#57 Post by Dave B » May 17th, 2016, 6:08 pm

Boris Trump Johnson is making a fool of himself and a mockery of the campaign. As if it was not bad enough already.

Later: he is making Britain a laughing stock as well.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#58 Post by animist » May 31st, 2016, 2:40 pm

though I strongly favour Remain, I have cheerfully been telling people on Facebook that UK expatriates already abroad will be safe in case of Brexit. However, this article suggests that, like so much in the controversy, the position of such people is not so clear. Anyone got any view or information over this?
http://www.connexionfrance.com/Vienna-C ... ticle.html

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#59 Post by Alan H » June 8th, 2016, 11:12 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#60 Post by Alan H » June 9th, 2016, 12:52 am

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#61 Post by Dave B » June 9th, 2016, 5:31 am

So, one of the more principled Tories once again sticks to her principles! Would that other politicians, of any colour, showed as much integrity.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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