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What animal products do you wear?

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Moderator: clayto

What animal products would you wear?

None
3
9%
Wool
11
32%
Silk
9
26%
Leather
10
29%
Fur
1
3%
 
Total votes: 34

Message
Author
Thomas
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What animal products do you wear?

#1 Post by Thomas » February 26th, 2008, 9:47 pm

This is aimed at both veggies and non-veggies and the question actually means what animal products do you personally not have any ethical objections to wearing or using as furniture coverings - it's not about whether you personally wear silk underwear or had to wear a leather sporran because you were best man at somebody's wedding.

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Alan C.
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#2 Post by Alan C. » February 26th, 2008, 10:04 pm

Well living in Shetland I had to tick wool (although I don't see any reason a vegetarian can't wear wool :shrug: ) no sheep were harmed in the making of my jumpers :laughter: Indeed it would be cruel not to clip them for the summer. Leather I'm not so sure about, I buy the cheapest shoes so it's possible (probable) they don't contain any leather. I would need to check.
Fur! absolutely not, fox fur looks far better on foxes than it does draped around the necks of socialite "ladies".
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#3 Post by Alan H » February 26th, 2008, 11:07 pm

I said wool and silk. I don't think I actually have anything made of them, but I don't think I would have any great objection to either.

I do see leather and fur as different from the others [---][/---] an animal has been directly killed to produce it. Of course, the sheep that produced the wool will end up being killed, but I suppose it's a bit like drinking milk [---][/---] the killing is done just out of sight.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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jaywhat
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#4 Post by jaywhat » February 27th, 2008, 6:06 am

I ticked wool and leather contary to the instructions because I actually wear those things - although I keep thinking I would stop if I could get myself organised.
Wool may seem less harmful than leather but it involves the wholesale breeding and keeping of sheep and then the wholesale slaughter of them when they are finished with. Same with eggs and milk.

In a completely veggie world one is talking about the total uprooting of the farming industry. It is a sort of surreal nightmare and so outrageous that many people, instead of thinking about it philosophically tend to scream and shout instead. It is certainly hard to imagine.

clayto
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#5 Post by clayto » February 27th, 2008, 5:39 pm

This is a good question with, so far, some good answers. A strict vegan would answer 'none' I believe but many veggies like me would say wool and silk are OK though I don't actually wear wool as it has always made me itch! My view on things like wool, milk, eggs is that the cruelties which may be involved are not essential to their production and could in principle be avoided even if in practice they are (often) not. Sheep could be reared for wool alone and treated well, the fact that they are not now but are also used for meat does not mean they never can be and hopefully at some (no doubt distant) time in the future this may be the case. Likewise with eggs and it has partly (largely?) been pressure from veggie egg users which has produced the substantial shift to free range and away from battery farming.

To me it is all based on the basic principle : how best can we act reasonable to reduce unnecessary animal suffering, respecting the needs of non-human animals just as we expect our own needs to be respected? The day to day application of this, like the points above, is always going to be debated within the veggie community itself as well as with non-veggies.

Chris
clayto

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Alan C.
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#6 Post by Alan C. » February 27th, 2008, 8:01 pm

clayto
Likewise with eggs and it has partly (largely?) been pressure from veggie egg users which has produced the substantial shift to free range and away from battery farming.
I could have agreed with this, if only you had left out the word "largely" although to give you credit, you did add a question mark.
We have always bought free range eggs as have a lot of people I know, I think the biggest influence in people switching to free range, has been the recent TV documentaries showing just how horrific conditions are for battery hens, many people I expect were unaware or never gave it a thought.

There are other factors as well of course, there is an EU ban on battery cages due to come into effect in 2012.
This is what the major retailers are doing now.
Major stores have begun clearing their shelves of eggs from caged birds four years before the introduction of an EU law to stop birds being kept in tiny cages.
Sainsbury's said it was the first major supermarket to announce a ban on battery hen eggs and was expected to end the sale of all such eggs by next year.
Morrisons also plans to stop selling eggs from caged hens by 2010. A spokesman said: "We see animal welfare as an extremely important factor when sourcing produce - that's why we have taken action on eggs."
Since 2003, Tesco and Asda have almost doubled the amount of free- range or barn eggs they stock but have so far failed to introduce a ban.
Since 2003, Marks & Spencer have sold only eggs from non-caged hens while the majority of Waitrose's eggs were also free-range.
The Co-op said it would announce an immediate ban on eggs that were not free-range "in the very near future" following a consultation on its food policy in September.
So while the vegetarian loby may have had a small role to play, please don't overstate it.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#7 Post by Alan H » February 27th, 2008, 9:48 pm

A quick search found this:
********************************************************************************
The Vegetarian Society UK - Victory for free-range - good news for hens and vegetarians
http://www.vegsoc.org/news/1999/hens.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Victory for free-range
good news for hens and vegetarians

PRESS RELEASE
29 January 1999

The European Parliament vote yesterday to phase out the battery egg system for laying hens throughout Europe has been welcomed by the Vegetarian Society. The Society is opposed to the battery cage system and has for many years campaigned for their abolition. For over ten years, the Society's V symbol food labelling scheme has only approved foods containing eggs, if they are free-range. The symbol now appears on almost 2,000 products and is used by over 350 companies.

"This is clearly welcome news for vegetarians and everyone interested in animal welfare. Vegetarians are very concerned with the use of battery eggs particularly in vegetarian convenience foods" said Chris Dessent, Head of Public Affairs for The Vegetarian Society. "We hope this vote will lead to a ban throughout the EU. This will ensure that in the future consumers will be able to buy vegetarian foods, safe in the knowledge that they are free from battery eggs. Any manufactures of vegetarian foods still using battery eggs should take the initiative now to change over to free-range."

The Vegetarian Society believes the move to phase out the battery cage is long over due and must start immediately. 300 million laying hens will live the entirety of their lives in the confines of the battery cage system, in the UK alone, over the next ten years.

"A period of ten years to close down the battery cages is too long to wait. The battery cage is one of the most barbaric and outdated atrocities of animal farming. The phasing out should begin now without delay."

An NOP survey by The Vegetarian Society in June 1998 revealed that 80% of consumers prefer to buy food that is cruelty free and good for the environment.

[Captured: 27 February 2008 21:43:30]

###################
Of course, they could be playing up their role a bit, but I have no reason to doubt that the Vegetarian Society and other vegetarians played a significant part. Note that this was in 1999 and they say they had been campaigning for years before that.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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xman
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#8 Post by xman » February 28th, 2008, 1:20 am

I'm a fish eating vegetarian, but I never stopped wearing animals. If I needed to I'm sure I'd wear fur too, but99% of fur is just for fashion these days and that goes against my ethic of the right tool for the right purpose. Wool is damn warm and leather protects and breathes well. Environmentalism is a broad topic.

X
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Critical Thinking - http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

Edward Hawkins
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#9 Post by Edward Hawkins » February 28th, 2008, 10:02 am

xman wrote:I'm a fish eating vegetarian,
X
You can be a vegetarian or you can be a fish-eater. You cannot be both.

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Alan C.
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#10 Post by Alan C. » February 28th, 2008, 10:55 am

Edward Hawkins wrote:
xman wrote:I'm a fish eating vegetarian,
X
You can be a vegetarian or you can be a fish-eater. You cannot be both.
A non meat eater maybe?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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xman
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#11 Post by xman » February 28th, 2008, 11:30 am

Edward Hawkins wrote:
xman wrote:I'm a fish eating vegetarian,
X
You can be a vegetarian or you can be a fish-eater. You cannot be both.
Right then ... I am a sushitarian. :grin:
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Critical Thinking - http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

clayto
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#12 Post by clayto » February 28th, 2008, 1:00 pm

Quote: You can be a vegetarian or you can be a fish-eater. You cannot be both.

Right then ... I am a sushitarian"

The 'correct term' (if one follows the guidance of the Vegetarian Society) is piscetarian. The VegSoc declares unequivocally that, 'vegetarians DO NOT eat fish' (as there is no ethical difference between eating fish meat and mammal meat) and it runs an ongoing campaign against fish eating and in particular the mistaken belief that veggies eat fish. Piscetarians (fish eaters) are allowed to be Associate Members of VegSoc. HVG welcomes piscetarians on the understanding that they recognise fish eating is not vegetarian, and are on the road to become better vegetarians. There are no perfect vegetarians, even among strict vegans, just as there are no perfect humans (even among Humanists!). We are just trying to do the best we can.

Chris
clayto

clayto
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#13 Post by clayto » February 28th, 2008, 1:59 pm

AlanC "So while the vegetarian lobby may have had a small role to play, please don't overstate it."

I do not think I have 'overstated' in any way, my 'claim' was quite modest, thus

"Likewise with eggs and it has partly (largely?) been pressure from veggie egg users which has produced the substantial shift to free range and away from battery farming."

You failed to notice that I did not refer to the 'vegetarian lobby' which would be taken as organisations actively engaged in campaigning (lobbying) but to veggie egg users. Although AlanH has drawn your attention to the substantial campaigning of the Vegetarian Society (and other animal welfare bodies) what I had in mind, in addition to this, is the vastly greater numbers of (unorganised) vegetarians and 'animal welfarists' who have influenced commercial decisions with their choice simply to not buy eggs from caged animals but to buy free range instead, despite higher prices. This I understand has been going on for a good number of years so that both the egg producers and public bodies have 'seen the writing on the wall' ---- a shift in market behaviour. Without effective consumer action like this there is doubt that the recent moves away from battery hens would have come about so strongly, so soon (some might say 'if at all'.)

Chris
clayto

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#14 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » February 28th, 2008, 4:46 pm

Chris wrote:
The VegSoc declares unequivocally that, 'vegetarians DO NOT eat fish' (as there is no ethical difference between eating fish meat and mammal meat) ...
While I certainly agree that vegetarians do not eat fish, and I'm inclined to believe (on the basis of evidence that fish do feel pain) that there is no significant ethical difference between eating fish and eating mammals and birds, I'm not convinced that the two things are related. After all, I do think there's an ethical difference between eating mammals, birds, fish and other sentient creatures, and eating more neurologically primitive animals, like ... snails. In fact, I think there's a stronger moral argument against drinking milk than there is against eating snails. However, if I started eating snails, I would no longer call myself a vegetarian. The definition is not based on ethics.
There are no perfect vegetarians, even among strict vegans, just as there are no perfect humans (even among Humanists!). We are just trying to do the best we can.
You're right. I'm been a vegan for over twenty years, and yet I've been known to kill Indian mealmoths with my bare hands. :exit:

Emma

Nick
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#15 Post by Nick » February 29th, 2008, 10:41 am

Thomas wrote:This is aimed at both veggies and non-veggies and the question actually means what animal products do you personally not have any ethical objections to wearing or using as furniture coverings - it's not about whether you personally wear silk underwear or had to wear a leather sporran because you were best man at somebody's wedding.
As a meat eater, I think the survey is somewhat loaded. There is far more importance IMO about the ethics of how and why animals are reared and killed, rather than whether they are used or not. Wool and leather are all fairly straightforward and obvious. Silk can be produced 'ethically', but most people don't care about grubs much. I'd just like to comment on fur.

In some ways I see no difference between leather and fur. Neither can be obtained without the death of the animal. Fur is, however, far more emotive. There are some circumstances where even veggies may be inclined to accept fur. For example indigenous polar dwellers have used fur for centuries, and it remains the most effective material for them to maintain their traditional existence. That is altogether different from shooting wild animals to provide a fur coat for stepping out of a limo in Cannes. I would also object to keeping wild animals in cages to produce furs.

I have a sheepskin rug, I have an Akubra hat (made of rabbit fur) and I have worn leather from kangaroo. I have no problem with any of these. Rabbits were introduced to Australia in the 1850's and have since been an ecological disaster, being responsible for the extinction of at least one indigenous species. If their fur is used as a by-product of controlling their numbers, that's OK with me. The same argument applies to kangaroo, whose population is unnaturally high because of Australian agriculture. In theory, the same could apply to ivory, obtained when elephant numbers are controlled. However, I would not sanction ivory because a market in ivory is likely to be abused by illegal hunting to the detriment of elephants and their environment and ecology.

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xman
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#16 Post by xman » March 1st, 2008, 12:33 am

clayto wrote:The 'correct term' (if one follows the guidance of the Vegetarian Society) is piscetarian.
Thanks for that information. I've learned a new word. I will likely continue to identify myself as a sushitarian though. People 'get' that right away. Piscetarian, while much more accurate would, I'm sure require additional explanation.

X
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Critical Thinking - http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

gregory
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#17 Post by gregory » March 1st, 2008, 11:02 am

An interesting discussion and generally speaking nice and good hearted.

I still have some animal product clothes because I make stuff last for ages. I have bought vegetarian shoes and they last for ages too.

They are often made from recycled stuff and are not particularly pretty in some cases. They do try to use ethical glues and stuff that biodegrades eventually. The prettier ones do not fit my rather awkward feet. Mind you leather ones aren't much better. No wonder KD Lang (just thought I would mention her again) wears bare feet on stage although it is possible to produce vegetarian cowboy boots I would think its just that the producers are a business and if they do not design popular clothing they will go bankrupt.

The problem with drinking milk is that the cow needs to produce a calf in order to produce milk. Some of these calves are male and because dairy cows are different from meat cows they go for slaughter. maybe organic milk is best because animal welfare is taken into consideration. I have to confess I do drink milk though. I tried soya but heard a lot of it is produced in the Amozon therefore contributing to loss of habitat. As Clayton says we are doing our best though and sometimes I daresay we get it right or at least we try to.

Re leather then it is a dilemma because since lots and lots of people eat meat then there is a by-product which is leather and it does bio degrade quite fast which is supposed to be a good thing.

The difference between wearing leather and fur is that fur sometimes comes from endangered species and at one time was used as a symbol of wealth and glamour. In Russia however it is worn inside the garment close to the body for warmth - well it used to be. So if one wears cowhide or sheep hide then perhaps it isn't so bad because it is using up the animal already used wear as with fur as I said it may be an endangered animal. This does not apply to mink as this was farmed. The animal liberationist released a lot of them saying it was cruel to keep them in cages which it probably was. The problem was that the mink eat a lot of our native species of animals. Although wearing of fur by women is sometimes considered to be for the high class its amazing how many communist wivves buy them (or used to they started getting attacked in the street) Of course for some one coat can last a fair old while and comes out of storage every year as it is more important to send one's offspring to a good school than idulge in fashion vulgarity. Some of the nicer of these people maybe members of the Humanist Society - hello there from me a pleb who's dad was in the communist party. Didn't Marx say that it wasn't the aristocracy who was the problem - you may like to look this up.

If you read the Guardian you will see that scientists (if you can believe them) have discovered that fish are quite brainy. My son being a Cancerian meat eater has no respect for people who eat fish thinking they (the fish eaters) are morally superior (he should be a Picean really I suppose) Of course some people turn vegetarian or similar for health reasons and the reduction of saturated fat rather than for moral reasons.
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Alan H
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#18 Post by Alan H » March 1st, 2008, 1:31 pm

xman wrote:Piscetarian, while much more accurate would, I'm sure require additional explanation.
Ah! The demise of classical education. I was probably one of the last to even get Latin as part of my High School education. Come to think of it however, my daughter took Latin at High School and loved it.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Zoe
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#19 Post by Zoe » March 12th, 2008, 2:28 pm

This is all very interesting. I find myself persuaded by Nick that it is not necessarily unethical to wear fur in all circumstances.

Emma W wrote: In fact, I think there's a stronger moral argument against drinking milk than there is against eating snails.
As a complete newbie (to the ideas of veganism) could you give me an outline of the moral argument against drinking milk. I know I could google it but I really enjoy reading your posts.

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Heurismus
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Re: What animal products do you wear?

#20 Post by Heurismus » March 13th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Hmmm! I can only respond as I read the question and must say that other than wool, I often wear a hell of a lot of leather to save my own hide if ever I have another motorcycle accident. The last one should have killed me but I walked away thanks to several poor cows, which I do anthropomorphically thank.
I hope you don't think me a monster. :wink:
The most cogent reason for restricting the interference of government is the great evil of adding unnecessarily to its power. - J.S. Mill

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