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Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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getreal
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#61 Postby getreal » May 29th, 2009, 11:21 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Thanks for posting those links, Lifelinking.
I have found this whole discussion thread very interesting. I still cannot say that I understand the issue.
I had written a whole lot here, but have deleted it as it didn't even make sense to me!

I think I'll just have to accept that gender identity is a very complex issue. This discussion has, however made me more aware of the subject and probably more aware of the complexity of the issue; I was of the opinion that it was really a social construct (except for those with identifiable biological basis), however I am now more open minded and accept that it is probably not so simple as that!

I shall continue to lurk with interest.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

Maria Mac
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#62 Postby Maria Mac » May 30th, 2009, 2:47 pm

I attended an event at the Wellcome Trust in January to hear Stephen Whittle (a transman) and Rikki Arundel (a transwoman). It was probably one of the most interesting and informative meetings I've ever attended.

I recommend this brief video of Stephen Whittle but it doesn't say much about Stephen's childhood. IIRC, he had decided to commit suicide if he couldn't become a transman. He now lives a happy life as a husband, a father and Professor of Equalities Law at Manchester Metropolitan University.

Somebody on this thread commented that there seem to be more transwomen than transmen and one of the interesting things I learned at the meeting was that in Eastern European countries, it's the other way round.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#63 Postby Lifelinking » May 30th, 2009, 3:22 pm

Brilliant link Maria, thank you
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#64 Postby Alan H » May 30th, 2009, 6:03 pm

Maria wrote:I attended
You mean we attended...

I agree with Maria: it was an excellent discussion. I don't think you could tell that Stephen Whittle had previously lived as a woman, but I just don't understand why that should matter in the slightest to anyone. They are still people, after all, and their gender should not enter into the equation when we are deciding how they should be treated.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan C.
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#65 Postby Alan C. » May 30th, 2009, 7:12 pm

Well done the kids :thumbsup: (after things had been explained to them)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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getreal
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#66 Postby getreal » May 30th, 2009, 7:19 pm

Thank you, Maria. That video piece was really uplifting.

I found what he said about prefering girls clothes when he was young interesting as I find myself more drawn to "boy-ish" clothes and colours. When I was a teenager I mostly dressed in boys jeans (as they fitted me better--I have no waist or hips and was told by a midwife I had an "androgynous" frame) and my boyfriends cast off rugby tops. I was also mistaken for a boy many times, in shops and so forth which upset me.

However, I have never at any time felt like a man or wanted to be a man and think perhaps that gender is a continuim rather than an "either/or".
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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lewist
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#67 Postby lewist » May 30th, 2009, 7:41 pm

There is a great deal of good sense in this thread.

Alan H wrote:...They are still people, after all...
...and if they do you or me no harm, why may they not continue as they are in their preferred way?
Alan C. wrote:Well done the kids :thumbsup: (after things had been explained to them)
I too found that impressive, though not really surprising. What children need is security and love, not proselytising and mumbo jumbo. I have known many stable children from secure and loving backgrounds, but these backgrounds often did not conform to the xtian stereotype.
getreal wrote:Thank you, Maria. That video piece was really uplifting.
Agreed.
getreal wrote:I found what he said about prefering girls clothes when he was young interesting as I find myself more drawn to "boy-ish" clothes and colours. When I was a teenager I mostly dressed in boys jeans (as they fitted me better--I have no waist or hips and was told by a midwife I had an "androgynous" frame) and my boyfriends cast off rugby tops. I was also mistaken for a boy many times, in shops and so forth which upset me.

However, I have never at any time felt like a man or wanted to be a man and think perhaps that gender is a continuim rather than an "either/or".
Your post was interesting, Getreal, and goes back to what Alan H said about us all being people. I guess you were a non-conformist when it came to fashion but you say there were boyfriends around to donate used rugby shirts, so a certain popularity went with the non-conformism.

We have to make sense of the world in our own way and provided we do no harm to others we must have the right to do so. Let the religious try to dictate to their own flock if they must, but not to those who do not subscribe to their views or beliefs.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#68 Postby Lifelinking » May 31st, 2009, 12:07 am

We have to make sense of the world in our own way and provided we do no harm to others we must have the right to do so.



right on
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#69 Postby Alan H » May 31st, 2009, 12:14 am

Lifelinking wrote:
We have to make sense of the world in our own way and provided we do no harm to others we must have the right to do so.



right on

:thumbsup:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Ron Webb
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#70 Postby Ron Webb » May 31st, 2009, 2:37 am

I seldom indulge in "me too"-type posts, but just for the record:
Alan H wrote:
Lifelinking wrote:
We have to make sense of the world in our own way and provided we do no harm to others we must have the right to do so.
right on
:thumbsup:

Me too. :thumbsup:

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Lifelinking
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#71 Postby Lifelinking » November 5th, 2009, 9:50 am

"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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grammar king
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#72 Postby grammar king » November 5th, 2009, 2:03 pm

And the prize for the worst placard ever goes to:

Another said: "God: My Son Is Not A Pervert."

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Nick
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#73 Postby Nick » November 5th, 2009, 5:18 pm

Pastor Jack Bell, of the Zion Baptist Church in Glasgow, who took part in the protest, said: [...] "You can't blaspheme God and use freedom of speech as an excuse for that."

Well, actually, you can. Blasphemy is no longer a crime, and in the UK we enjoy freedom of speech.

He added: "True biblical Christianity is becoming marginalised through political correctness.

Hmmm... True biblical Christianity? Besides the vagueness of such a description, it would be truer to say that it has been marginalised by the advance of science and laws which prohibit the worst excesses of the bible.

"If this play had treated the prophet Mohammed in the same way there would have been a strong reaction from the Islamic community, but that just wouldn't happen."
Surely that says more about the outrageousness of certain muslims, than about free speech or being trans-sexual.
Are they claiming their equally irrational views should be protected from science and reason?

Marian
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#74 Postby Marian » November 5th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Nick wrote:Are they claiming their equally irrational views should be protected from science and reason?


In a word, yes!

Geez, the playwright didn't even call into question the existence of god or challenge the intolerant stance of some xians in regard to being trans. Those xians are so picky! :laughter:
Plus, if jesus existed at all, he did, in fact, probably wear something akin to a dress although probably tied around the waist. It's not like he would have lived in Canada with those freakin' cold winters!


I have often thought that one of the reasons the transgender issue troubles some christians is fear.

Fear of: that which is different from their worldview,
having to look deeply within,
finding out they were wrong about their most cherished beliefs,
having to figure out a new way of managing in the world as rational adults,
having to think for themselves etc.
Transformative fire...

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Lifelinking
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Re: Why are transgender issues so troubling to some Christians?

#75 Postby Lifelinking » November 5th, 2009, 7:52 pm

I would add to that list, the fact that many of them have been socialised that way. Taught from their earliest years to hate certain things. Then they pass that on to the next generation.

I will post a very disturbing photograph below. It makes me angry just thinking about it. But it illustrates what I mean.

Spoiler:
Image


Rogers and Hammerstein had it right when they wrote 'Carefully Taught'

You’ve got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You’ve got to be taught
From year to year,
It’s got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You’ve got to be carefully taught.

You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You’ve got to be carefully taught.

You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You’ve got to be carefully taught!


Of course, it was about racism, but I reckon the principle applies more widely.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney



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