The wearing of full face veils

[Lifelinking]

Latest post of the previous page:

He is a politician, and therefore speaks with forked tongue.

Re last but one post by Marian - a genuine thank you for laying out your view - I think we will have to agree to differ on this one

[Alan C.]

Hey! They are not mutually exclusive! Are you sure he doesn't speak Gaelic?

Most of the time he speaks shite

[getreal]

[CurtisB]

NM

[Alan C.]

Bump

[getreal]

Saw a child in Braehead Shopping Centre (Glasgow) the other day with her fully veiled Ma and casually dressed Da, She must have been about 10 years old and had her hair fully covered- you know the scarf thing that goes round the neck too?

Is this to be "modest"? Is this to ensure she doesn't "inflame" men with wicked thoughts? She's a CHILD for fuck's sake!!!
It makes me SO angry.

Alan, that picture makes me feel very sad.

[Gottard]

Looking at those photos I begin to wonder if the fundamentalists migrate to Europe because unwanted at home.
Likewise, roma (the thieve ones) left Romania (their original country) because persecuted. they invaded France and Italy who, in their turn, are struggling to send them back to Romania. The big dilemma, as a Humanist, is to decide if the Human rights organisations are right in condemning the gov. of France and Italy for those repatriations.
France insists that the EU should spend "that pre-set budget" aimed at integrating needy people in their home-country.

[Maria Mac]

Good job you don't live where I do, getreal, cos you'd be walking round in a perpetual rage. Kids in hijab are a common sight round here. I've never got used to it but nowadays it makes more sad that angry.

[Marian]

I don't care so much if the adults choose to wear such clothing, if we can even call it that. Sack might be more appropriate. Doesn't really matter since it's doing the job it's meant to. Meaning covering up women's bodies. What it really says to me is that quite often men (not all) have a real problem with self-control. And it's not just about hijab either. Both Western and non-Western society often seem to view women as either baby-making machines or sluts; we're objectified regardless. Doesn't matter what one is wearing either.
The hijab and its' close relatives, the niqab and burkha, just serve to remind me that women still aren't seen as people who are capable of making their own choices regarding their bodies and they are forced to take on the impossible task of 'controlling' men's behaviour. The same thing applies to the compulsory wearing of skirts and long sleeves of orthodox Jews and their Christian counterparts; it's about modesty on the surface but there's more to the picture. Will things ever change?

Sorry, was that a bit of a rant? I wasn't feeling outraged when I wrote it just matter-of-fact.

[Fia]

Good job you don't live where I do, getreal, cos you'd be walking round in a perpetual rage. Kids in hijab are a common sight round here. I've never got used to it but nowadays it makes more sad that angry.

In the light of this, and Marian's post - hear hear, sister - I'd like to expand this to "our" culture. I think there is just as big a problem with dressing pre-pubescent girls in skimpy provocative clothing. I know we women should be able to dress how we want, but I just don't get the wanting to be something which is clearly for male sexual consumption, and not for comfort, warmth or ease of movement. For instance high heels. They change the balance of the body so the breasts and buttocks are thrust into unnatural prominence. No woman in high heels can run.

But it's more than this. It's not the Dads buying provocative clothing for pre-teens. It's the Mums Through the media, particularly the tabloid press and magazines, there is a wholly unobtainable female image sold (literally, through the marketing of female clothing). I have yet to reach Maria's slightly enviable move from anger to sadness, whether it's for the hijab etc or, to put it very bluntly, paedophile fodder for the young girls clothing, or wank and gawp fodder for the more "adult".

Before we can move anywhere forward in this issue of female apparel us women need to get our sisters on board. As long as the Mothers of our potential female future movers and makers encourage the hijab on one end of the scale, and micro porn on the other, we will never be taken seriously.

[getreal]

Did I read somewhere recently that Katie Price aka Jordan (she of the impossible lips and breasts) is looking at bringing out a range of CHILDREN'S make up??

I shall chech up on this and report back (bit busy just now)

[Alan C.]

Fia
Before we can move anywhere forward in this issue of female apparel us women need to get our sisters on board.

You're dead right Fia, so why is the feminist movement in the UK silent on the issue of women being forced to wear the desert tent?
(A useful piece of garb in a sandstorm in the desert) but not much use in Bradford!

All the women I have read/heard in the UK seem to be apologists for Muslim men "Oh the women want to wear it," blah de blah de bloody blah.

I don't believe any woman would choose to dress like that here in the UK.

[Maria Mac]

Fia
Before we can move anywhere forward in this issue of female apparel us women need to get our sisters on board.

You're dead right Fia, so why is the feminist movement in the UK silent on the issue of women being forced to wear the desert tent?

Because there is no 'feminist movement' as such these days, there are only individual feminists and single issue campaigns. Granted there is the Fawcett Society, which proclaims it is working to "close the equality gap between men and women". But publicly commenting on hijab doesn't fall within its remit because the fact of the matter is that women in the UK do choose to wear it and those who do would perceive it as hostility towards them and their choice and they would see a ban as a restriction on their civil liberties.

All the women I have read/heard in the UK seem to be apologists for Muslim men "Oh the women want to wear it," blah de blah de bloody blah.

Pointing out that women want to wear it isn't a defence of it. Nor is it being an apologist for Muslim men. I agree with what has been said about it and blogged about it a few months ago. Since then I have been engaging (i.e. sparring) with women who choose to wear it. At places like youtube and facebook there are loads of videos and groups on there saying things like 'I wear hijab and I am free'. There is a battle for hearts and minds being waged by some of us and I often feel it's a hopeless battle. One young woman I was arguing with ended up saying, 'I do understand your point but you will never understand why I feel as I do.' I couldn't disagree with that and the discussion ended.

With respect to the poll, I slightly disagree although I support the ban in other countries. I think in this country, because of our recent history of divisive multicultural policies, it would be unworkable and lead to civil unrest.

[animist]

Bump

this may not be a representative case, but it is instructive; the legal prohibition of something requires absolutely conclusive proof that it is harmful

[Marian]

this may not be a representative case, but it is instructive; the legal prohibition of something requires absolutely conclusive proof that it is harmful

What constitutes 'absolutely conclusive proof'?

[animist]

What constitutes 'absolutely conclusive proof'?

to give the easy answer, a documented case like this shows that the proof is not conclusive as the women in the UK photo are unlikely to be as constrained in their choice of dress as women in Lahore. I do find, from reading the opinions on this issue, is that there is a lack of consultation with the women themselves. Also, what is the real purpose of a legal ban, ie what is the harm caused by this mode of dress, and how would a ban be enforced?

[jaywhat]

Who said it is only female apparel?

I cannot enter a bank with a crash helmet on so I change into the full garb and it is OK ?

Can you tell if it hides a large chunky woman or a thin elegant man?

[Lifelinking]

or both

[Maria Mac]

[Marian]

What constitutes 'absolutely conclusive proof'?

to give the easy answer, a documented case like this shows that the proof is not conclusive as the women in the UK photo are unlikely to be as constrained in their choice of dress as women in Lahore. I do find, from reading the opinions on this issue, is that there is a lack of consultation with the women themselves. Also, what is the real purpose of a legal ban, ie what is the harm caused by this mode of dress, and how would a ban be enforced?

I don't know. I feel like you've kind of side-stepped the question and brought more assumptions to the fore with your answer. So be it.
What makes you think the women in the UK photo are less constrained? You mean because the outward society doesn't have the Morality police running around? A woman is not going to feel less constrained if her menfolk are insisting, either outwardly or through more subtle means, that she maintain the status quo with regard to what she wears outside. Just because she comes to a country that is less controlling doesn't mean her or her families way of thinking is going change. Perhaps over time it would.

You mentioned about asking the women themselves. This is again assuming that said women are free from the psychological/social/emotional ties that bind them to what is 'acceptable' in their particular social settings or that they have spent a great deal of time looking the issue from many sides. I'm sure some have and some haven't. The social consequences of questioning might just be too high for some to even think about it.

The harm (not in any order):
de-individualizes women
makes them virtually invisible, psychologically and physically
puts them at the mercy of the menfolk should they choose not to conform (even more than they probably already are)
makes it difficult to conduct one's business having to always watch carefully to not trip over the folds of the 'clothing'
makes the women 'responsible' for making sure men control themselves
underlying message is that women and their bodies should be hidden, are sinful, and dirty; this has to effect self-esteem.

That's all I could think of just now. Your question about how a ban would be enforced is a good one. It would be very difficult to enforce something like that uniformly and across the board. But I think if we lived in a society that truly valued women and encouraged her to express herself in a myriad of ways, and insisted that others who come to that society do the same, the battle would be mostly won.

You don't have to answer this question but I thought I'd ask out of curiosity: are you male or female? My first guess would be male.

[Nick]

You don't have to answer this question but I thought I'd ask out of curiosity: are you male or female? My first guess would be male.

...and your second...?



Sorry Marian, I'm just being juvenile.

I agree with the points you made. In addition, if the dress code becomes acceptable it puts pressure on more and more unwilling women to adopt it.

The ban in France is to be enforced by fines. We shall see how this pans out. My fear is that some women will not even be let out of the house. Should the men then be prosecuted....?