Amish

[getreal]

There is currently a series on Channel 4, following a group of young Amish people as they experience life away from their families for the first time. I have a secret regard for for the simple, dignified way of life, their hardworkingness (it's late-I know it's possibly not a word) and their almost unbelievable capacity for forgiveness.

Their way of life appears almost utopian and I wonder if it would have been possible without the religious content.

[animist]

probably not, but should they be allowed not to send their kids to school?

[getreal]

well, everyone else has that choise too, don't they?

Why would it not be possible to duplicate their way of life without religion? Surely if a group of people had a shared moral code and a strictly adhered to set of "rules" it would be possible to reproduce their way of living. I don't get the impression that they have a particularly hellfire and brimstone belief. They seem to believe in a good and kindly god.

[animist]

I thought that you have show that you can give an equivalent education to your kids at home; the Amish want to stay totally apart from modern society, and to deny knowledge of that wider society to their kids

[getreal]

Well they would argue (I suppose) that theirs is an equivelent in that it equips them to live as adults in their community. What's so wrong with that?

[animist]

well, for one thing it means that is all they do have behind them in later life. Suppose they want to leave and get a mainstream job? That is only one aspect - basically they are a totalitarian religious community which indoctrinates its members from birth and has sanctions like "shunning".

[getreal]

but it seems to result in a stable community, where everyone appears to have enough to live on.

They are not stopped from leaving. By the time they leave their schooling they can read, write and count (I'll give you that their knowledge of world affairs is woefully lacking, but they can read whatever they like and have access to the same books and newspapers we do).

They appear to actually do OK

when comparing standardized test scores of Amish students, the Amish have performed above the national average for rural public school pupils in spelling, word usage, and arithmetic. They performed below the national average, however, in vocabulary

.
source

[animist]

On the specific point of their education scores, that is what I would expect - that they would do well on rote education like spelling but not good on vocabulary; the latter is far more important, and their low score confirms what one would expect from a stifling background of conformity. I have not seen the programme but have looked at the Wikipedia entry on them. Did you know that they are rigidly hierarchical and patriarchal? They also suffer from diseases due to inbreeding, but apparently they do know of the genetic benefits of exogamy! They do vote (conservatively, what a surprise). It is fine to dress in funny clothes, but these time warp communities are the antithesis of humanist values, and they are an extreme version of the madrasas and faith schools which should not be tolerated in a tolerant but secular society.

[xmeltrut]

The impression I got from the documentary was that they managed to maintain educational standards two ways. Firstly, it's almost one to one tuition in many examples, or at least there were only a few children often being taught by an older sibling. Compare that to a 30 child class in a state school.

Secondly they tend to concentrate on different things. This is both true of the fact that they aren't studying to pass exams which many people believe is very counter productive in our system. Secondly I would be interested in the scope of their knowledge. Their English may be as good as ours for example but is there geography, foreign languages or IT?

[Maria Mac]

Their way of life appears almost utopian and I wonder if it would have been possible without the religious content.

I don't think so. The Amish are a good example of how the function of religion is to keep people under control. The Amish are hard-working and lead simple, decent lives because they think they'll be rewarded in the afterlife. Bring children up to believe that this life is the only one we have and they're bound to want something more from it than ceaseless toil. And what's to stop people using electricity (and having TV, radio and the internet) if they don't believe it's a sin?

[Lifelinking]

what goes clip ... clop ..... clip .... clop ..... clip .... clop bang! clip clop clip clop clip clop clip clop clip clop clip clop

Spoiler:

an Amish drive by shooting

I know, I know, and I am sorry ....

[Alan C.]

getreal
Their way of life appears almost utopian and I wonder if it would have been possible without the religious content.

If you can spare an hour watch this documentary (sorry UK only) the Amish are no less an oppressive, controlling cult than any of the others.
Note that they're supposed to live as 300 years ago, only most of them wear modern spectacles, they have telephones, and they even have indicators on their horse drawn buggies, hypocrites!
But the biggest mystery (for me) is how they can drop one set of insane beliefs only to take up another (fundaMENTAL Christianity.
Leaving Amish Paradise

[getreal]

Thanks for the link, Alan. I don't have time right now, but I am due for a day off taxi duties tomorow, so should have time to watch it (in between cooking/cleaning/getting more seeds in....)

[Alan C.]

Thanks for the link, Alan. I don't have time right now, but I am due for a day off taxi duties tomorow, so should have time to watch it (in between cooking/cleaning/getting more seeds in....)

Keep an eye on your blood pressure while watching it getreal.
I wont say too much and spoil it but after the Amish guy switched to Christianity he wanted his daughter taken off chemotherapy for her leukaemia and said god would look after her (it was costing him $s) the state wouldn't let him.

[getreal]

but after the Amish guy switched to Christianity

Aren't Amish christians, then?

[Alan C.]

but after the Amish guy switched to Christianity

Aren't Amish christians, then?

Watch the documentary
These folk (the ones leaving) were only allowed access to the buy-bull as it was written in some ancient Germanic language that they couldn't understand, they were prohibited from reading it in English (ring any bells?) but just relied on their "elders" to tell them how to behave according to "the book" (ring any more bells?)

[getreal]

Having watched it, there were a few inaccuracies. The Amish are not a homogeneous group and there are different "sects" within it, some more strict than others. Elements of the modern world are rejected if it is felt that they would be used to gain over your neighbour. Electricity is not "banned" per se and communal phones are common as they are for the use of the entire community. Mobile phones are also used when it's not for personal gain (for instance if your teenager is on rumspringa and is living away. They could also be given a mobile phone to enable them to keep in contact with their family).
The comment that filming is not allowed is also strange as I have seen a number of TV programmes about the Amish. Perhaps when the nature of the filming was made clear they withdrew their permission, or, agin. perhaps this was a very conservative sect.

Although it'd be easy to say that Ephraim was a dickhead, I think it's important to remember that they are brought up in a community which does not value (in fact, would de-value) any kind of critical thought or even decision making. Ephraim appeared to be quite a confident personality, though, and although a bit of a twat, I felt he could probably make a better life for himself than poor Jesse. Jesse just looked so lost and bewildered and I really felt that he'd have been better staying put.

It is a cult, though. Isn't it?

[animist]

It is a cult, though. Isn't it?

to be pedantic, I would say no, as it is a branch of Christianity - this makes it a sect. A cult is a brand new religion which is not thought "respectable" by whoever

[Nick]

I'm just wondering if the Amish are a bit agnostic. If they really believed, they would be Ams.

[animist]

I'm just wondering if the Amish are a bit agnostic. If they really believed, they would be Ams.

so I might be animish on a bad day?