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we are a Christian country

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

we are a Christian country

#1 Post by Alan H » December 16th, 2011, 5:16 pm

So sayeth our Lord and Master, David Cameron:
I am a committed – but I have to say vaguely practising – Church of England Christian, who will stand up for the values and principles of my faith…
The King James Bible is as relevant today as at any point in its 400 year history.
…a foundation that has seen the Bible at the forefront of the emergence of democracy, the abolition of slavery…

…and the emancipation of women – even if not every church has always got the point!
The Bible has helped to shape the values which define our country.

Indeed, as Margaret Thatcher once said, “we are a nation whose ideals are founded on the Bible.”

Responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, humility, self-sacrifice, love…

…pride in working for the common good and honouring the social obligations we have to one another, to our families and our communities…


…these are the values we treasure.

Yes, they are Christian values.
Because the tolerance that Christianity demands of our society provides greater space for other religious faiths too.

And because many of the values of a Christian country are shared by people of all faiths and indeed by people of no faith at all.


Second, those who advocate secular neutrality in order to avoid passing judgement on the behaviour of others…

…fail to grasp the consequences of that neutrality…

…or the role that faith can play in helping people to have a moral code.
Sod it. It'd take too long to highlight all the nonsense. Read it for yourself. If your blood pressure can stand it.

What a self-serving load of Tory shite.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#2 Post by Dave B » December 16th, 2011, 5:28 pm

The King James Bible is as relevant today as at any point in its 400 year history.
Of course it is! Superb piece of English writing that is of value to those to whom it is of value. For the rest of us, it contains the odd bit of common sense and wisdom and a lot of beautiful (if meaningless) prose.

Nothing changed, just as relevant now as the day it was written and all bits in between.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#3 Post by Alan H » December 16th, 2011, 7:24 pm

Sorry, I forgot to include a link to his speech: http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/king-james-bible/
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
Posts: 3607
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#4 Post by thundril » December 16th, 2011, 7:50 pm

Yes, the Bible and our values. Lovely, isn't it?

Skyfrog
Posts: 143
Joined: August 11th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: we are a Christian country

#5 Post by Skyfrog » December 16th, 2011, 11:38 pm

To be fair to Cameron, I think there is a difference between being a hardcore evangelical Christian right-wing nutcase and being a "vaguely practising Church of England Christian". The latter are not necessarily so unpalatable, in my view.

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: we are a Christian country

#6 Post by Nick » December 16th, 2011, 11:49 pm

Alan H wrote:What a self-serving load of Tory shite.
Of course, for the sake of balance, we must include that "one-eyed Scottish idiot" son of the manse, and , likewise, the one and only, Mr. Tony "We don't do God, but I'm actually a spineless Catholic" Blair.

Purely in the interests of political balance.

At least Cameron has the decency to say that he doesn't actually do anything about it. :wink:

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Alan H
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Re: we are a Christian country

#7 Post by Alan H » December 16th, 2011, 11:57 pm

Skyfrog wrote:To be fair to Cameron, I think there is a difference between being a hardcore evangelical Christian right-wing nutcase and being a "vaguely practising Church of England Christian". The latter are not necessarily so unpalatable, in my view.
But this particular "vaguely practising Church of England Christian" has the power to let religion take over in so many places in society where it just should not be - and he's sure as hell supporting and encouraging them to do it, frequently without sufficient safeguards in place.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#8 Post by Alan H » December 16th, 2011, 11:59 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:What a self-serving load of Tory shite.
Of course, for the sake of balance, we must include that "one-eyed Scottish idiot" son of the manse, and , likewise, the one and only, Mr. Tony "We don't do God, but I'm actually a spineless Catholic" Blair.
Tu quoque? :smile:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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anaconda
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Re: we are a Christian country

#9 Post by anaconda » December 17th, 2011, 12:46 am

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:What a self-serving load of Tory shite.
Of course, for the sake of balance, we must include that "one-eyed Scottish idiot" son of the manse, and , likewise, the one and only, Mr. Tony "We don't do God, but I'm actually a spineless Catholic" Blair.

Purely in the interests of political balance.

At least Cameron has the decency to say that he doesn't actually do anything about it. :wink:

Yep. I kind of respect christians who are happy to stick it out there and not fret about the consequences. It seems to me the decent thing to do. And so fight your corner. Blair was clearly more influenced by his political aspirations than his christianity. or was nstead simply a coward.
John

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: we are a Christian country

#10 Post by Nick » December 17th, 2011, 12:49 am

Hardly, Alan. One might almost say "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" :D

By all means criticise Cameron's uttererances with regard to religion (indeed I am right beside you in condemning them), but it belittles the argument to sling partisan mud at the same time.

Or is Milliband "self-serving shite" too? :wink:

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jaywhat
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Re: we are a Christian country

#11 Post by jaywhat » December 17th, 2011, 6:16 am

I guess Cameron sums it up to some extent; this kingdom of ours is a "vaguely practising – Church of England Christian" country - sort of.
Meanwhile the thinkiing majority live in hope and are slowly but surely altering it and moving it gradually towards a secular state. Then will shall see the bishops in their place equal with all primates, the church disestablished and the royals republicanised - if not in my lifetime.

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Dave B
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Re: we are a Christian country

#12 Post by Dave B » December 17th, 2011, 9:51 am

Thinking about it there is not a lot wrong with "Christian values" providing you include only the teaching of morals and one's attitude's to our fellow humans in them - nothing about the purely supernatural side - they are little different in general from the Humanist precepts. It's an old argument that many of these values pre-dated Christianity anyway, they just appropriated them, as all the other religions do.

The problem is how do we teach those precepts in as "efficient" a way that the churches managed to do over many centuries? Some consider them "Christian values" simply because of that history of a very restricted moral diet, there were no alternatives. That they wear philosophical blinkers, and maybe accept the religious lead rein attached to their nose, goes without saying.

You cannot order people to be nice, you cannot legislate for that. It seems to have been proven, time and again, that "physical" punishments, from fines to the death sentence, have little effect on the amount and kind of crimes committed. We no longer believe in life ever-after or the fear of eternity in Purgatory so those two factors that were/are so important to the Chrisrians no longer really apply (except to the really indoctrinated.)

What is going to be the new carrot and stick system that inculcates the sense of moral responsibility, one appropriate for a secular world, into the new generations? Maybe most of the present adults who misbehave are beyond "redemption". I used "inculcate" deliberately there, it has to be more than simply offering the moral values for acceptance or rejection that will sort of out the ills and injustices in this material world IMHO.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: we are a Christian country

#13 Post by Nick » December 17th, 2011, 10:17 am

ISTM that it is a dangerous thing to like "values" to Christianity, because the sensible, logical rejection of Christianity would seem to leave "values" without foundation. Much better not to build upon sand. :wink:

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Dave B
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Re: we are a Christian country

#14 Post by Dave B » December 17th, 2011, 10:30 am

Nick wrote:ISTM that it is a dangerous thing to like "values" to Christianity, because the sensible, logical rejection of Christianity would seem to leave "values" without foundation. Much better not to build upon sand. :wink:
That is what I attempted to imply, Nick.

The "values" stand alone, on their own merit. Attaching them to religion, of any variety, also attaches the supernatural and other factors that have nothing to do with those values but which destroy rational thought (that opposes the religious beliefs at least) and which have been used to excuse all kinds of atrocities.

I think that we agree.

But, yes, how to find a foundation to build on that has the solidity that the laws regarding Christian teaching, over the centuries, have given them an argument that far too many accept as being the only answer. We secularists and humanists have a hard task there! Humanity has built in barriers to its own propagation, we are only allowed to offer. There are billions who do not even notice. To "get the message across" to enough to make any real difference would require proselytising to an unacceptable degree. Not to mention billions of pounds!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: we are a Christian country

#15 Post by Alan H » December 17th, 2011, 3:01 pm

BHA news release:
Prime Minister’s remarks ‘bizarre’ and ‘deeply concerning’
The British Humanist Association has condemned remarks made by Prime Minister David Cameron, in which he stated that Britain was a Christian country, that it was only as a Christian country that Britain could be welcoming of those of other religions, and that Christian values could reverse British society’s ‘moral collapse’.

BHA Chief Executive Andrew Copson criticised the Prime Minister’s claims:

‘As a simple factual statement what the Prime Minister said is incorrect – only a minority of people in Britain are practising Christians and over half of the population sees itself as non-religious according to the latest British Social Attitudes survey. Although Christianity has undoubtedly had a sometimes positive influence on the cultural and social development of Britain, it is far from being the only influence. Many pre-Christian, non-Christian, and post-Christian forces have shaped our society for the better and Christianity has often had ill effects. So, on the factual level the Prime Minister’s remarks are simply bizarre.’

Mr Copson went on to express concern over the political motivations behind the Prime Minister’s remarks:

‘The most hopeful political reading of his speech is that Mr Cameron doesn’t really mean it and that his statements are intended as a way to pacify the increasingly strident lobbying of a minority of Christians for more influence in our public life and greater privilege for those with Christian beliefs. The case for this reading is supported by the fact that the Prime Minister used his speech to peddle the myth that those of non-Christian religions are best off in a Christian society – a claim unsupported by history and logic but one of the favourite arguments of activist Christian groups against a secular state. If this were the motivation behind the speech, at least it would give less reason to fear future policy initiatives shaped by these destructive ideas.

‘Most concerning would be if the Prime Minister were serious. A politician and a government that tried to make Christianity and Christian beliefs the foundation of British values or a social morality would be building on seriously unstable foundations. All the evidence is that religion makes no difference in terms of a person’s social and moral behaviour – the same percentage of religious as non-religious people do volunteer work, for example. And people certainly don’t want to see it have more influence in government – in a 2006 IpsosMori poll, ‘religious groups and leaders’ actually topped the list of domestic groups that people said had too much influence on government.

‘However you look at it, whether as a sop to appease increasingly assertive and aggressive Christian lobbies, or as a serious proposition to change public policy, his remarks are deeply concerning for anyone who values reason and evidence in public policy and fairness and secularism in our political life.’
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
Posts: 3607
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#16 Post by thundril » December 17th, 2011, 5:58 pm

jaywhat wrote: Then will shall see the bishops in their place equal with all primates,
What, in the safari park?

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Dave B
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Re: we are a Christian country

#17 Post by Dave B » December 17th, 2011, 6:46 pm

thundril wrote:
jaywhat wrote: Then will shall see the bishops in their place equal with all primates,
What, in the safari park?
That or Monkey World
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: we are a Christian country

#18 Post by Fia » December 17th, 2011, 8:22 pm

From Dave's last link, we may need to alert Ninny's knitting needles to this :)

I am hugely saddened that the religious don't get that morals are human made. Dressed up in the purple of a deitys pronouncements, and imbued through cultural socialisation, yet human made nonetheless.

thundril
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Re: we are a Christian country

#19 Post by thundril » December 17th, 2011, 10:22 pm

Much as I am unfond of Cameron, at least we don't have to put up with This kind of shite

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Alan C.
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Re: we are a Christian country

#20 Post by Alan C. » December 17th, 2011, 11:12 pm

thundril wrote:Much as I am unfond of Cameron, at least we don't have to put up with This kind of shite
Not yet, or am I being paranoid?
It looks more and more [to me] like our politico are heading down the American rout.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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