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Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#41 Post by Compassionist » June 20th, 2012, 4:53 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

A child went to heaven and met Jesus!

Incidentally, my brother-in-law (a born-again Christian) had a head injury when he was a child and he also claims to have gone to heaven and met Jesus.

International Association for Near-Death Studies has more stories of near-death experiences.

Girl went to hell and paints pictures of it.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#42 Post by Tetenterre » June 20th, 2012, 5:29 pm

Compassionist wrote:Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
If they witnessed a resurrection, isn't it slightly odd that they didn't say so but instead wrote that "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" witnessed it?
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

thundril
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#43 Post by thundril » June 20th, 2012, 5:58 pm

The four gospels give different accounts of who got to the tomb first, and what they saw. Christian apologists have always struggled to reconcile the discrepancies in this, the most important story in their entire faith. The efforts are still continuing today. For example HERE, and HERE
But none of the so-called 'witnesses' (Mary Magdalene, plus one, or two, or several, others) are said to have actually witnessed the resurrection itself; only the empty tomb, with one or two angels, or one or two men, there.
the only persons who are said to have witnessed the resurrection itself were the guards (note, these are probably not the same guards who were present at the crucifixion). The guards were 'as dead men' at first, and then quietly trotted off to tell the high priest Jesus had just got up and walked out of his tomb. Then they accepted a 'large bribe' to put the word about that the disciples had stolen the body to make it look as if Jesus was really the Son of God. And sure enough, the guards pocketed the cash and went around telling a lie about what had happened. As you would, wouldn't you, if you had just seen an angel descend clothed in lightning, and a guy who claimed to be the son of god had just come back to life and walked out of his tomb after being dead 36 hours?
That's exactly what you would do, isn't it?
And, FTM, who told Matthew about the high priest's act of secret bribery?

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Alan C.
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#44 Post by Alan C. » June 20th, 2012, 6:00 pm

Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
Compo, nobody knows who wrote the new testament (even the Catholic encyclopedia admits this) What we do know is that it wasn't written until 70 to 100 years after Jesus' supposed existence, so none of the writers could have met him.

Your friend needs to read some books (other than his bible)

Cross posting with thundril.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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animist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#45 Post by animist » June 20th, 2012, 6:11 pm

Compassionist wrote:Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
can you tell me where they said this?

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Dave B
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#46 Post by Dave B » June 20th, 2012, 6:12 pm

Compassionist wrote:A child went to heaven and met Jesus!

Incidentally, my brother-in-law (a born-again Christian) had a head injury when he was a child and he also claims to have gone to heaven and met Jesus.

International Association for Near-Death Studies has more stories of near-death experiences.

Girl went to hell and paints pictures of it.
I would put these on a par with "Aliens kidnapped/raped me!"
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan C.
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#47 Post by Alan C. » June 20th, 2012, 8:13 pm

Compo
He read your posts but felt ill equipped to debate.
I'll bet he did! :D Do you think he assumes that you're an easier target? With friends like him.........You know the rest.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#48 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 2:54 pm

Tetenterre wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
If they witnessed a resurrection, isn't it slightly odd that they didn't say so but instead wrote that "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" witnessed it?
Jesus apparently showed himself to the disciples in the room upstair. Thomas even got to touch the wounds from the crucifixion. Obviously, no one can prove that the Biblical account is true. Christians say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." The non-Christians, obviously, don't believe the Bible.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#49 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 2:56 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Compo
He read your posts but felt ill equipped to debate.
I'll bet he did! :D Do you think he assumes that you're an easier target? With friends like him.........You know the rest.
My wife and her side of the family and her friends are Christians. We go to church regularly. Almost all of the people I know in Northern Ireland are Christians. I am constantly bomberded with Christianity...

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#50 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 3:00 pm

Dave B wrote:
Compassionist wrote:A child went to heaven and met Jesus!

Incidentally, my brother-in-law (a born-again Christian) had a head injury when he was a child and he also claims to have gone to heaven and met Jesus.

International Association for Near-Death Studies has more stories of near-death experiences.

Girl went to hell and paints pictures of it.
I would put these on a par with "Aliens kidnapped/raped me!"
I am puzzled by near-death experiences. Some of the people who have had near-death experiences say things they would not have known if they had not been outside their body (i.e. a wandering soul) during their brush with death. Anyone here had one? Anyone here read Life after Life?

thundril
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#51 Post by thundril » June 21st, 2012, 3:02 pm

Compassionist wrote: Jesus apparently showed himself to the disciples in the room upstair. Thomas even got to touch the wounds from the crucifixion. Obviously, no one can prove that the Biblical account is true. Christians say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." The non-Christians, obviously, don't believe the Bible.
Perhaps you could invite your friend to comment on the two Christian sites I linked to in my previous post? The four gospels give four seriously incompatible versions of the story. which one does your friend say is 'the truth about the resurrection'?

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#52 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 3:04 pm

animist wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
can you tell me where they said this?
They don't say, "At this time and place I witnessed such and such miracles and the resurrection." However, if you read the parts of the Bible claimed to be written by these three and in the other parts of the New Testament, you will find the accounts of the miracles and the resurrection.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#53 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 3:13 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
Compo, nobody knows who wrote the new testament (even the Catholic encyclopedia admits this) What we do know is that it wasn't written until 70 to 100 years after Jesus' supposed existence, so none of the writers could have met him.

Your friend needs to read some books (other than his bible)

Cross posting with thundril.
All the copies (I have many, some were received as gifts from Christians, others were bought by me) of the Bible put various people (e.g. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul) as the authors of the New Testament. They also put other people as the authors of the Old Testament. I don't know on what basis these claims are made. I don't know if it would be possible to know for sure who wrote what and when.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#54 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 3:16 pm

thundril wrote:The four gospels give different accounts of who got to the tomb first, and what they saw. Christian apologists have always struggled to reconcile the discrepancies in this, the most important story in their entire faith. The efforts are still continuing today. For example HERE, and HERE
But none of the so-called 'witnesses' (Mary Magdalene, plus one, or two, or several, others) are said to have actually witnessed the resurrection itself; only the empty tomb, with one or two angels, or one or two men, there.
the only persons who are said to have witnessed the resurrection itself were the guards (note, these are probably not the same guards who were present at the crucifixion). The guards were 'as dead men' at first, and then quietly trotted off to tell the high priest Jesus had just got up and walked out of his tomb. Then they accepted a 'large bribe' to put the word about that the disciples had stolen the body to make it look as if Jesus was really the Son of God. And sure enough, the guards pocketed the cash and went around telling a lie about what had happened. As you would, wouldn't you, if you had just seen an angel descend clothed in lightning, and a guy who claimed to be the son of god had just come back to life and walked out of his tomb after being dead 36 hours?
That's exactly what you would do, isn't it?
And, FTM, who told Matthew about the high priest's act of secret bribery?
I agree with your point. I will ask my Christian friend for his comments.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#55 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 3:22 pm

thundril wrote:
Compassionist wrote: Jesus apparently showed himself to the disciples in the room upstair. Thomas even got to touch the wounds from the crucifixion. Obviously, no one can prove that the Biblical account is true. Christians say, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." The non-Christians, obviously, don't believe the Bible.
Perhaps you could invite your friend to comment on the two Christian sites I linked to in my previous post? The four gospels give four seriously incompatible versions of the story. which one does your friend say is 'the truth about the resurrection'?
This Christian website attempts to 'harmonize' the contradictory accounts. I would guess my Christian friend would side with the website.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#56 Post by Tetenterre » June 21st, 2012, 3:28 pm

Compassionist wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Matthew, John and Peter (all of whom contributed to the New Testament) said they met Jesus and witnessed his miracles and resurrection.
If they witnessed a resurrection, isn't it slightly odd that they didn't say so but instead wrote that "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" witnessed it?
Jesus apparently showed himself to the disciples in the room upstair.
According to the bible, that is so, but it's not the same as "Matthew, John and Peter [...] said they met Jesus and witnessed his [...] resurrection."

Compassionist wrote:However, if you read the parts of the Bible claimed to be written by these three and in the other parts of the New Testament, you will find the accounts of the miracles and the resurrection.
That's about as useful as historical evidence as me saying something like, "At a crucial juncture, William the Bastard needed to relieve himself. This fortuitously prevented him making the really bad instant decision that would have lost him the Battle of Hastings."
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

Compassionist
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#57 Post by Compassionist » June 21st, 2012, 4:05 pm

I agree with you. I can't defend the Bible. Although Christians have tried.

stevenw888
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#58 Post by stevenw888 » June 22nd, 2012, 11:02 am

It is not worth discussing the bible. It is a book, written by primitive people, almost 2,000 years ago and written many years after the so called "events" had taken place.
Its not even worthy of discussion. We would be far better spending our time discussing in depth, the book "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, written only 36 years ago by a learned scholar. This book is my "bible" - the book I turn to when I want answers to seemingly unanswerable questions. Stop wasting time discussing the bible - it is a pointless exercise.
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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Dave B
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#59 Post by Dave B » June 22nd, 2012, 11:05 am

. . . "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, written only 36 years ago by a learned scholar.
Backed by scientific investigation, personal experience and critical and rational thought!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

stevenw888
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#60 Post by stevenw888 » June 22nd, 2012, 11:16 am

:finger: +1!
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

thundril
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Re: Evidence (?) for Christ's Resurrection

#61 Post by thundril » June 22nd, 2012, 2:14 pm

stevenw888 wrote::finger: +1!
Are you sure that's the right emoticon, Steve?

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