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Male circumcision in Germany

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Dave B
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Male circumcision in Germany

#1 Post by Dave B » June 26th, 2012, 9:40 pm

Not sure where else to put this, just heard on BBC WS:

A German court has ruled that the circumcision of males for other than medical purposes is against the rights of the subject. It also says that those rights supersede the religious requirements of the parents.

The four year old in the case is Muslim. The parents employed a doctor to do the job but it went wrong and the authorities became involved.

There is still the chance that a higher court may reverse the ruling, but it is a move in the right direction. Trouble is I doubt that much can be done if the parents take their boys to Israel or a Muslim country for the cut.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan C.
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#2 Post by Alan C. » June 26th, 2012, 9:59 pm

I wouldn’t get too exited, we already have a law in the UK against female genital mutilation, convictions so far? None.
Estimated cases? 100,000.
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Dave B
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#3 Post by Dave B » June 26th, 2012, 10:09 pm

Alan C. wrote:I wouldn’t get too exited, we already have a law in the UK against female genital mutilation, convictions so far? None.
Estimated cases? 100,000.
That number in the UK alone?

But if the ruling is upheld by the more senior courts it is still a move in the right direction.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Dave B
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#4 Post by Dave B » June 26th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Haven't found much in the way of hard statistics on the prevalence in the UK, except that those women born in countries practising FGM and now resident in the UK was in the order of 174 000 in 2001. That is women who were cut and/or sewn up before coming here.

From a 2009 London FGM resource pack (PDF) :
2.1.5 There were nearly 16,000 girls aged 8 or younger at high risk of WHO Type III FGM and over 5,000 at high risk of WHO Type I or Type II. In addition, over 8,000 girls aged 9 or more had a high probability of already having type III FGM and over 3,000 a high probability of having types I or II9.
In 2010 the Guardian had:
Some 500 to 2,000 British schoolgirls will be genitally mutilated over the summer holidays. Some will be taken abroad, others will be "cut" or circumcised and sewn closed here in the UK by women already living here or who are flown in and brought to "cutting parties" for a few girls at a time in a cost-saving exercise.
Once again, from reading these, it is the case that many of the FGMs are committed abroad, outside of UK legislation, during holidays. Though it seems that some girls are actively fighting against this and reporting that they are at risk to the authorities.
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Altfish
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#5 Post by Altfish » June 30th, 2012, 4:13 pm

I hope this court ruling sticks.

It always amazes me that the religions that carry out this barbaric practice belive that we are created by God/Allah/Zues/etc. Yet this masterful creator can't get the design of the male genitalia correct and it has to be cut off by mere earthlings.
Pathetic [-X

Nick
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#6 Post by Nick » June 30th, 2012, 7:56 pm

I'm also fearful that the religious will seize upon the idea that it is healthier to be circumcised. HIV rates, especially, seem to be affected by it. Witness what has gone on in South Africa. I seem to be in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with the Catholic Church that the way to reduce future AIDS incidence is to restrict one's sexual activity.



Don't agree with them on condom use, though, so I'm not entirely lost to the Dark Side.... :D

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Dave B
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#7 Post by Dave B » June 30th, 2012, 10:21 pm

German verdict's purpose is to delay circumcision, not ban it, jurist says
Holm Putzke, law professor at Passau University, says 'Nobody wants to ban religious circumcision in Islam and Judaism, but it should be decided by those who undergo it.'
From here.

And this
German case opens up another battle in the circumcision war
And more if you look for it.
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Alan H
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#8 Post by Alan H » July 23rd, 2012, 12:09 am

Two petitions:

Protect children's rights to bodily integrity. Age-restrict circumcision.

Stoppt die Beschneidung von Kindern aus religiösen Gründen!

Use Google Translate for the second one:
Freed from religious influences and dogmas we all make our living together. Make your mark for the rights of adolescent boys in Germany and close on this petition! Contrary to legalize the intention of our government that we demand the banning of circumcision for purely religious reasons, minors and non-medical reasons! to the beginning of each age must decide for himself whether he can perform the circumcision.
Why this is important

From 200 signatories to the petition of a comprehensive multi-million community will be presented for signature, so that they can then be passed to the Bundestag.

Currently it is common practice in Germany that is not of legal age boys are circumcised for religious reasons. This determination shall be made by their parents. Even if the children involved, for example from 14 Age are likely to decide the question arises what the influence of parents in this decision.
The Federal Government is planning the attack on the rights of minors to legalize:
http://www.ftd.de/politik/deutschland/: ... campaign=/


To ensure that our elected officials not representing our views:
In order to make our voice heard, it's not enough to wait until the next election. We must act now and set an example.
This intervention is final and can not later be undone!
We can not allow our laws and rights to protect the child's religious or traditional practices and interests be subordinated! Help us with this important step to go along and sign our petition now!

Background information on the pros and cons of circumcision can be found here:
http://www.pflegewiki.de/wiki/Zirkumzision
Alan Henness

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1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
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Dave B
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#9 Post by Dave B » July 23rd, 2012, 9:42 am

I had heard quotes from German politicians about "protecting religious rights" (or was it rites - hard to tell in verbal quotes). From a politician that could mean something like, "Too many of those who vote for us are Jews or Muslims and we must not annoy them. Apart from that the Jews will throw the Holocaust in our faces again, which is embarrassing."
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Manuel
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#10 Post by Manuel » July 23rd, 2012, 8:16 pm

A Holocaust thrown in your face. That's gotta hurt.

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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#11 Post by Nick » July 25th, 2012, 6:18 pm

:pointlaugh:

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#12 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » July 26th, 2012, 5:31 pm

I'm not ready to sign any petitions about this. I'm still undecided on the issue, but I strongly suspect that more harm will be caused by the prohibition of circumcision for non-medical reasons than is caused by allowing it to continue, in hospitals, performed by qualified medical personnel, using local anaesthetic.

There's a long but, I thought, useful article on the issue by Adrien M. Viens: "Value judgment, harm, and religious liberty", Symposium on circumcision, Journal of Medical Ethics 2004; 30: 241[--][/--]7.

I'd be very interested in hearing the views of any circumcised male participant of ThinkHumanism. But I suppose that would be considered "too much information".

Emma

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animist
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#13 Post by animist » July 29th, 2012, 10:02 am

Emma Woolgatherer wrote:I'm not ready to sign any petitions about this. I'm still undecided on the issue, but I strongly suspect that more harm will be caused by the prohibition of circumcision for non-medical reasons than is caused by allowing it to continue, in hospitals, performed by qualified medical personnel, using local anaesthetic.

There's a long but, I thought, useful article on the issue by Adrien M. Viens: "Value judgment, harm, and religious liberty", Symposium on circumcision, Journal of Medical Ethics 2004; 30: 241[--][/--]7.

I'd be very interested in hearing the views of any circumcised male participant of ThinkHumanism. But I suppose that would be considered "too much information".

Emma
I won't sign the petition at the moment, but I not convinced by the article. I was circumcised as an infant, though for medical reasons, and apparently the operation was botched first time (I don't think anaesthetics were used, I am not sure, but even my mild parents were upset about the affair). We would not use the risk of illegal/extra-jurisdiction female circumcisions as an argument against actively banning this (admittedly much more severe) "operation", so I don't see that this aspect is a strong reason not to oppose idiotic religious precepts which do in fact violate children's rights; it does also introduce an element of gender discrimination if we vehemently oppose cutting for females but not for males. I find the author's constant reference to what is "reasonable" annoying and unhelpful, but I suppose it's predictable given the nature of the journal.

Re the comment about too much information, I consulted the organ in question, which raised no concern about the publicity :wink:

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Alan H
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Re: Male circumcision in Germany

#14 Post by Alan H » August 8th, 2012, 12:40 am

Replace circumcision with symbolic ritual, says Norwegian children's watchdog
Circumcising boys violates their right to decide over their own body, says children's watchdog Dr. Anne Lindboe.
By JTA | Aug.07, 2012 | 1:37 AM

Jewish World

Norway's ombudsman for children's rights has proposed that Jews and Muslims replace male circumcision with a symbolic, nonsurgical ritual.

Dr. Anne Lindboe told the newspaper Vart Land last month that circumcising boys was a violation of their right to decide over their own body.

"Muslim and Jewish children are entitled to the same protection as all other children," Lindboe said, adding that the practice caused unnecessary pain and was medically unbeneficial.

Lindboe, a pediatrician, was appointed ombudsman in June. Her predecessor, Reidar Hjermann, proposed setting 15 as the minimum age for circumcision. According to Jewish religious law, Jewish babies must be circumcised when they are eight days old.

The Ombudsman for Children in Norway is an independent governmental institution entrusted with safeguarding the rights of minors.

Ervin Kohn, president of Oslo's Jewish Community, said that Norwegian Jews "will not be able to live in a society where circumcision is forbidden." He noted that the mandate of Norway's children's ombudsman did not extend to devising Jewish rituals.

Norway's Jewish community has about 700 members.

In June, a spokesperson for Norway's Centre Party, which has 11 out of 169 seats in parliament, proposed a ban on circumcising babies.
A very good suggestion, but not sure it'll cut it. (Sorry!) If their bible says it must be done, I can't see many complying.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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