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Atheists. Why. . .

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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lmbarre
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Joined: December 8th, 2012, 5:19 am

Atheists. Why. . .

#1 Post by lmbarre » December 21st, 2012, 1:45 pm

... is there something rather than nothing?
LM Barré

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#2 Post by Alan H » December 21st, 2012, 1:53 pm

No idea. But this is interesting (but needs a subscription to read all of it!): Before the big bang: something or nothing
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#3 Post by animist » December 21st, 2012, 1:57 pm

"even though the universe has a beginning, its origins may be lost in the mists of time." Oooh, spotted a self-contradiction: if the origins are lost in the mists of time, that means there must already have been mists, ergo water, to hide the origins :wink:

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#4 Post by Nick » December 21st, 2012, 3:56 pm

lmbarre wrote:... is there something rather than nothing?
Why does there necessarily need to be an answer to that question? We would only be able to attempt to answer it in human terms anyway, which, given our consmic insignificance, would tend to suggest that we are quite likely to get it wrong anyway.

While we are at it, can I recommend Lawrence Krauss to you? A Universe from Nothing is on Youtube, and very good it is too. And as he says, "Nothing isn't Nothing, anymore....."

thundril
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#5 Post by thundril » December 21st, 2012, 4:34 pm

Nick wrote:. . .. . .
While we are at it, can I recommend Lawrence Krauss to you? A Universe from Nothing is on Youtube, and very good it is too. . . .
+1

Compassionist
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#6 Post by Compassionist » December 21st, 2012, 5:41 pm

Nick wrote:
lmbarre wrote:... is there something rather than nothing?
Why does there necessarily need to be an answer to that question? We would only be able to attempt to answer it in human terms anyway, which, given our consmic insignificance, would tend to suggest that we are quite likely to get it wrong anyway.

While we are at it, can I recommend Lawrence Krauss to you? A Universe from Nothing is on Youtube, and very good it is too. And as he says, "Nothing isn't Nothing, anymore....."
Great talk. Thanks for telling us about it.

Lord Muck oGentry
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#7 Post by Lord Muck oGentry » December 23rd, 2012, 1:23 pm

lmbarre wrote:... is there something rather than nothing?
I've always liked Sidney Morgenbesser's answer: " If there were nothing you'd still be complaining!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Morgenbesser

More seriously, though... I'm not sure that it's a proper question. Questions of the form Why are there...? are answered by reference to something else: tectonic plates for mountains, differences in food supply for varieties of tortoises in the Galapagos Islands, the presence of Neptune for perturbations in the orbit of Uranus, and so on. But this won't work for the universe as a whole, because there is no something else.
What we can't say, we can't say and we can't whistle it either. — Frank Ramsey

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geolab
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#8 Post by geolab » December 23rd, 2012, 2:42 pm

lmbarre - please go to the new thread I have asking you some questions. I have put this here presuming you have email notifications.
..besieged, by a thousand or more .. Mexicans.. surrender at discretion, otherwise, ... put to the sword, .. I have answered.. with a cannon shot, .... sustain myself as long as possible and die like a soldier ... Victory or Death. William Barret Travis

Manuel
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#9 Post by Manuel » December 23rd, 2012, 4:36 pm

A question that's difficult to answer. Therefore God? No, still just a question that's difficult to answer.

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Carja
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#10 Post by Carja » December 23rd, 2012, 6:36 pm

Realization that we will never know all the answers to every question in our minds, can be liberating in itself. Look for those answers and research possibilities. Celebrate when you find an answer and don't despair if you can't. Kind of like that phrase, "agree to disagree". Agree that some things will always be a mystery. And, isn't that great. When all mysteries are solved, we humans will be so bored. What is life without a little mystery?
Laugh often/love much;leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child,a garden patch,or a redeemed social condition;play w/enthusiasm & sing w/exultation;know even 1 life has breathed easier because you lived. This is success.B.A.Stanley

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#11 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 9:19 pm

animist wrote:"even though the universe has a beginning, its origins may be lost in the mists of time." Oooh, spotted a self-contradiction: if the origins are lost in the mists of time, that means there must already have been mists, ergo water, to hide the origins :wink:
If it is true that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then we empirical evidence that matter is eternal.

The Big Bank did not create something out of nothing. Matter simply morphed into our present universe.
LM Barré

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Dave B
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#12 Post by Dave B » December 23rd, 2012, 9:24 pm

If it is true that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then we empirical evidence that matter is eternal.
But, surely, matter and energy are the same thing. Matter can become energy and vice versa - what was its state before the Big Bang?

Is there, maybe, another state for energy/matter? What is Dark energy/matter?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#13 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 9:41 pm

Nick wrote:
lmbarre wrote:... is there something rather than nothing?
Why does there necessarily need to be an answer to that question? We would only be able to attempt to answer it in human terms anyway, which, given our consmic insignificance, would tend to suggest that we are quite likely to get it wrong anyway.

I did not insist that it necessary. But is a good question that Sartre posed, don't you think?

While we are at it, can I recommend Lawrence Krauss to you? A Universe from Nothing is on Youtube, and very good it is too. And as he says, "Nothing isn't Nothing, anymore....."
I quite agree. Nothingness is empirically demonstrated and a necessary derivative concept from Being. Being and Nothingness define each other.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#14 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 9:44 pm

geolab wrote:lmbarre - please go to the new thread I have asking you some questions. I have put this here presuming you have email notifications.
I viewed you question and responded.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Joined: December 8th, 2012, 5:19 am

Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#15 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 9:47 pm

Manuel wrote:A question that's difficult to answer. Therefore God? No, still just a question that's difficult to answer.
The question was posed by J.P Sarte.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#16 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 9:58 pm

Carja wrote:Realization that we will never know all the answers to every question in our minds, can be liberating in itself. Look for those answers and research possibilities. Celebrate when you find an answer and don't despair if you can't. Kind of like that phrase, "agree to disagree". Agree that some things will always be a mystery. And, isn't that great. When all mysteries are solved, we humans will be so bored. What is life without a little mystery?
As one who deifies Existence, I pose a radical ontological argument. It is impossible to deny Being, for in the act, Being is presupposed.

Is a definition of God as Being or Existence warranted? Indeed it is, on the basis of the incomprehensibility of the vastness and complexity of the cosmos. How many electrons are there in the known universe? What is the temperature of the heat of all of the known stars? It is scientific knowledge that reveals Existence as God(dess). Retreating from this conclusion I think is a most irrational skepticism.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#17 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 10:01 pm

Manuel wrote:A question that's difficult to answer. Therefore God? No, still just a question that's difficult to answer.
Yes, therefore God.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#18 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 10:02 pm

Carja wrote:Realization that we will never know all the answers to every question in our minds, can be liberating in itself. Look for those answers and research possibilities. Celebrate when you find an answer and don't despair if you can't. Kind of like that phrase, "agree to disagree". Agree that some things will always be a mystery. And, isn't that great. When all mysteries are solved, we humans will be so bored. What is life without a little mystery?
Yes, but watch out for an uncourageous retreat into irrational skepticism.
LM Barré

lmbarre
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#19 Post by lmbarre » December 23rd, 2012, 10:04 pm

Alan H wrote:No idea. But this is interesting (but needs a subscription to read all of it!): Before the big bang: something or nothing
Why do you have no idea?
LM Barré

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Alan H
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Re: Atheists. Why. . .

#20 Post by Alan H » December 24th, 2012, 12:02 am

lmbarre wrote:
Alan H wrote:No idea. But this is interesting (but needs a subscription to read all of it!): Before the big bang: something or nothing
Why do you have no idea?
Because it's not something I have spent any effort into thinking about.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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