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How the Bible supports slavery

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#41 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 21st, 2022, 1:29 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Compassionist wrote:
July 18th, 2022, 6:10 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 18th, 2022, 3:22 pm
Compassionist wrote:
July 18th, 2022, 8:32 am


No one can harm all-knowing and all-powerful beings. So, if we were all like that we would all be invincible. What do you mean by the fittest in your line? How would we work out which species is the fittest species? How would we work out which members of a species are the fittest?
To your first.

I cannot know the standards of what I have never encountered.

To the rest.

Human standards of excellence and fitness are well documented.

Just look at where we compete.

I don't think we need itemize them all, do we?

Regards
DL
How am I the fittest in my line? You didn't explain what you mean by my line. There are much more resilient organisms than humans e.g. tardigrades can survive even in the vacuum of space for 30 days without a space station or space ship or space suit. So, human standards for excellence and fitness are exceeded by other organisms. So, they are fitter than the human species.
Those are not in your genetic line.

To it, in a real way, when you were born to it, you were the fittest to that point in time.

How could it not possibly be so?

If not you, then who the hell was?

You might not be so any longer. IDK.

But to your line, your excellence was and stilol is a true fact, unless you or your kin have had children since your birth.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
Posts: 3590
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#42 Post by Compassionist » July 21st, 2022, 8:37 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 21st, 2022, 1:29 am
Compassionist wrote:
July 18th, 2022, 6:10 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 18th, 2022, 3:22 pm


To your first.

I cannot know the standards of what I have never encountered.

To the rest.

Human standards of excellence and fitness are well documented.

Just look at where we compete.

I don't think we need itemize them all, do we?

Regards
DL
How am I the fittest in my line? You didn't explain what you mean by my line. There are much more resilient organisms than humans e.g. tardigrades can survive even in the vacuum of space for 30 days without a space station or space ship or space suit. So, human standards for excellence and fitness are exceeded by other organisms. So, they are fitter than the human species.
Those are not in your genetic line.

To it, in a real way, when you were born to it, you were the fittest to that point in time.

How could it not possibly be so?

If not you, then who the hell was?
There
You might not be so any longer. IDK.

But to your line, your excellence was and stilol is a true fact, unless you or your kin have had children since your birth.

Regards
DL
Behind every living thing, there is an unbroken chain of ancestry to the very first living thing. The evaluation of which organism is the fittest should involve fair tests. I am the only organism with all of my genes. The same is true of most organisms except for those who reproduce asexually and identical siblings. What criteria are you using for assessing who is the fittest? My brother and I were the only children my parents had. My brother died as a baby. However, that does not mean that I am fitter than him. His brain was damaged by the doctor during his birth. If the same thing had happened to me or any other human baby, we would also have died. So, this is not a fair comparison. If you go by sheer number of organisms, bacteria are the fittest as they are the most numerous. If you go by which organisms are the most resilient, tardigrades are the fittest. If you go by which organisms are the most intelligent, humans are the fittest. These criteria are arbitrary. Reality does not care which organism is the fittest. The able enough survive and reproduce and the unable die out. One does not need to be the fittest to survive and reproduce, one needs to be just fit enough.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#43 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 21st, 2022, 3:59 pm

"What criteria are you using for assessing who is the fittest?"

Survival of the genetic line to that point in time, and reproduction in the eco system that the entity finds itself in.

If you are the last and youngest of your line, you have to be the fittest, until a younger person is born.

You and I were the best of our line until we reproduced what we must see as a fitter person.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#44 Post by Compassionist » July 22nd, 2022, 11:18 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 21st, 2022, 3:59 pm
"What criteria are you using for assessing who is the fittest?"

Survival of the genetic line to that point in time, and reproduction in the eco system that the entity finds itself in.

If you are the last and youngest of your line, you have to be the fittest, until a younger person is born.,

You and I were the best of our line until we reproduced what we must see as a fitter person.

Regards
DL
Not all organisms in the same genetic line have to face the same challenges. For example, my grandparents had to struggle against war and famine. My parents also had to struggle against war, famine, cyclones, floods, earthquakes, poverty, etc. I have not had to struggle against only cyclones, floods, earthquakes, health problems, crimes and poverty. So, it is not a fair comparison of fitness. I am not fitter than my parents or grandparents. We have had different challenges. Also, while we share most genes, we are not genetically identical so that is not a fair comparison either.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#45 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 22nd, 2022, 3:20 pm

Compassionist wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 11:18 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 21st, 2022, 3:59 pm
"What criteria are you using for assessing who is the fittest?"

Survival of the genetic line to that point in time, and reproduction in the eco system that the entity finds itself in.

If you are the last and youngest of your line, you have to be the fittest, until a younger person is born.,

You and I were the best of our line until we reproduced what we must see as a fitter person.

Regards
DL
Not all organisms in the same genetic line have to face the same challenges. For example, my grandparents had to struggle against war and famine. My parents also had to struggle against war, famine, cyclones, floods, earthquakes, poverty, etc. I have not had to struggle against only cyclones, floods, earthquakes, health problems, crimes and poverty. So, it is not a fair comparison of fitness. I am not fitter than my parents or grandparents. We have had different challenges. Also, while we share most genes, we are not genetically identical so that is not a fair comparison either.
Argument noted but may not have relevance.

Sure we all have different futures and pasts.

At any point in time, some person has been able to honestly say he was the fittest for his or her line and environment, and the fittest of his or her kind.

A dog pack always has an alpha who has the conditions you show.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#46 Post by Compassionist » July 22nd, 2022, 6:21 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 3:20 pm
Compassionist wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 11:18 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 21st, 2022, 3:59 pm
"What criteria are you using for assessing who is the fittest?"

Survival of the genetic line to that point in time, and reproduction in the eco system that the entity finds itself in.

If you are the last and youngest of your line, you have to be the fittest, until a younger person is born.,

You and I were the best of our line until we reproduced what we must see as a fitter person.

Regards
DL
Not all organisms in the same genetic line have to face the same challenges. For example, my grandparents had to struggle against war and famine. My parents also had to struggle against war, famine, cyclones, floods, earthquakes, poverty, etc. I have not had to struggle against only cyclones, floods, earthquakes, health problems, crimes and poverty. So, it is not a fair comparison of fitness. I am not fitter than my parents or grandparents. We have had different challenges. Also, while we share most genes, we are not genetically identical so that is not a fair comparison either.
Argument noted but may not have relevance.

Sure we all have different futures and pasts.

At any point in time, some person has been able to honestly say he was the fittest for his or her line and environment, and the fittest of his or her kind.

A dog pack always has an alpha who has the conditions you show.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL
We are all inevitable products of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Our fitness and lack thereof is not something we can be credited or blamed for. Everything is proceeding deterministically. All the ancestors of all the currently alive organisms were fit enough to survive long enough to reproduce. Obviously, no organism is fit enough to survive forever.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#47 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 23rd, 2022, 12:40 am

All correct, especially your, "All the ancestors of all the currently alive organisms were fit enough to survive long enough to reproduce."

They were all, like you and I at one time, the fittest, as newest of the line.

A strange condition, in gays who are prone to not reproduce, in a species that has to reproduce to continue.

Regards
DL

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#48 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 23rd, 2022, 12:46 am

Compassionist wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:21 pm
deterministically.
Within the limits of our free will due to the chaotic nature of reality and not a fully deterministic universe.

In a real sense, nothing is determined that cannot be altered by a sentient creature.

Looking at sub atomic particles changes what they will do in the split screen experiments.

Regards
DL

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#49 Post by Compassionist » July 23rd, 2022, 9:39 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 23rd, 2022, 12:46 am
Compassionist wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:21 pm
deterministically.
Within the limits of our free will due to the chaotic nature of reality and not a fully deterministic universe.

In a real sense, nothing is determined that cannot be altered by a sentient creature.

Looking at sub atomic particles changes what they will do in the split screen experiments.

Regards
DL
Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Omniscience and omnipotence allow one a will that is free from all constraints and a will that is not determined by any variables. I have never met an entity that was all-knowing and all-powerful. So, the existence of such an entity is hypothetical.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

The uncertainty at the quantum level averages out at the macroscopic level. When you toss a coin or roll a die, the coin or the die do not exhibit superposition the way subatomic particles do.

We don't have free will. It's impossible to have free will unless one is all-powerful.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:

1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, health problems, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.

Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die

I am clearly not a free agent with free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices and die inevitable deaths. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of insufficient knowledge and insufficient power.

Why do subatomic particles change what they do when observed? Does it matter who is doing the observing? If a non-sentient robot did the observing, would they change what they do when a sentient human does the observing?

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#50 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 23rd, 2022, 3:16 pm

Compassionist wrote:
July 23rd, 2022, 9:39 am

Definition of free will:


Mostly all true.

You have ignored where we do have a free will that is limited by nature and opportunity.

I even have a little test that irrefutably shows you having a free will.

It involves you giving up your free will to me via a request.

You can likely dither out the logic.

Regardless, you will choose, or not, to reply to my post.

Your choice :hilarity: :hilarity:

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#51 Post by Compassionist » July 23rd, 2022, 7:04 pm

Here I go again, making yet another inevitable choice determined by my unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. As I said before, I have a constrained will, not a free will. The same applies to all biological organisms. You did not answer the three questions I asked in my previous post. Is that because you don't know the answers?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#52 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 23rd, 2022, 11:51 pm

Compassionist wrote:
July 23rd, 2022, 7:04 pm
Here I go again, making yet another inevitable choice determined by my unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. As I said before, I have a constrained will, not a free will. The same applies to all biological organisms. You did not answer the three questions I asked in my previous post. Is that because you don't know the answers?
I do not have the answer you seek.

I can link you to a science site that might be able to answer your rather complicated questions.

You forgot to mention that your mind also get involved in your choices and the time of day.

Regards
DL

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#53 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2022, 9:43 am

Please send me a link to the science site which can answer my questions. Yes, my mind is involved in my choices but my mind is not free from my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The time of day is part of the environment which comprises spacetime coordinates. Thank you.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#54 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 24th, 2022, 3:32 pm

Compassionist wrote:
July 24th, 2022, 9:43 am
Please send me a link to the science site which can answer my questions. Yes, my mind is involved in my choices but my mind is not free from my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The time of day is part of the environment which comprises spacetime coordinates. Thank you.
I don't know if there are answers for you here, but it is my best choice.

https://www.physicsforums.com/

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#55 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2022, 7:09 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 24th, 2022, 3:32 pm
Compassionist wrote:
July 24th, 2022, 9:43 am
Please send me a link to the science site which can answer my questions. Yes, my mind is involved in my choices but my mind is not free from my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The time of day is part of the environment which comprises spacetime coordinates. Thank you.
I don't know if there are answers for you here, but it is my best choice.

https://www.physicsforums.com/

Regards
DL
Thank you for the website.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#56 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 25th, 2022, 4:05 pm

Hope they help.

I sought them out to see if I could get an answer on the speed of light going faster than the speed of light around corners.

They could not dither it out or really explain the issue much.

Science hangs on to the light speed limit while knowing that that limits is being broken all the time.

Regards
DL

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#57 Post by Compassionist » July 25th, 2022, 6:21 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 25th, 2022, 4:05 pm
Hope they help.

I sought them out to see if I could get an answer on the speed of light going faster than the speed of light around corners.

They could not dither it out or really explain the issue much.

Science hangs on to the light speed limit while knowing that that limits is being broken all the time.

Regards
DL
Yes, someone answered the questions. You can read the answer if you want to https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/w ... ed.1017101

I don't understand what you said about the speed of light going faster than the speed of light around corners. Please explain. Thank you.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#58 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 26th, 2022, 2:01 pm

That is not much of an answer and does not really answer the question to my satisfaction.

As to notions of light speed, picture a beam of light, light cone as some call it, being deflected by a gravitational or other source.

On the inside of the curve, you would have one speed, the speed of light, and on the outside of the curve, you would have a faster speed to keep up.

Think of a car going around a corner. The outside of the wheels will travel further than the inside of the wheel in the same amount of time.

Regards
DL

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#59 Post by Compassionist » July 26th, 2022, 5:03 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 2:01 pm
That is not much of an answer and does not really answer the question to my satisfaction.

As to notions of light speed, picture a beam of light, light cone as some call it, being deflected by a gravitational or other source.

On the inside of the curve, you would have one speed, the speed of light, and on the outside of the curve, you would have a faster speed to keep up.

Think of a car going around a corner. The outside of the wheels will travel further than the inside of the wheel in the same amount of time.

Regards
DL
I am satisfied with the answers. The beam of light curving due to the gravity of a black hole is not the same thing as the wheels of a car going around a corner. There is no inside beam and outside beam the way there is an inside wheel and an outside wheel.

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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#60 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 26th, 2022, 6:06 pm

Compassionist wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 5:03 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 2:01 pm
That is not much of an answer and does not really answer the question to my satisfaction.

As to notions of light speed, picture a beam of light, light cone as some call it, being deflected by a gravitational or other source.

On the inside of the curve, you would have one speed, the speed of light, and on the outside of the curve, you would have a faster speed to keep up.

Think of a car going around a corner. The outside of the wheels will travel further than the inside of the wheel in the same amount of time.

Regards
DL
I am satisfied with the answers. The beam of light curving due to the gravity of a black hole is not the same thing as the wheels of a car going around a corner. There is no inside beam and outside beam the way there is an inside wheel and an outside wheel.
Sure there is.

Think light cone, like what you see from a flashlight. Like a triangle with edges.

Bring it close to a gravitational field, and like a car going around a curve, the outside goes faster and further than the inside to keep up.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Re: How the Bible supports slavery

#61 Post by Compassionist » July 27th, 2022, 6:17 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 6:06 pm
Compassionist wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 5:03 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 2:01 pm
That is not much of an answer and does not really answer the question to my satisfaction.

As to notions of light speed, picture a beam of light, light cone as some call it, being deflected by a gravitational or other source.

On the inside of the curve, you would have one speed, the speed of light, and on the outside of the curve, you would have a faster speed to keep up.

Think of a car going around a corner. The outside of the wheels will travel further than the inside of the wheel in the same amount of time.

Regards
DL
I am satisfied with the answers. The beam of light curving due to the gravity of a black hole is not the same thing as the wheels of a car going around a corner. There is no inside beam and outside beam the way there is an inside wheel and an outside wheel.
Sure there is.

Think light cone, like what you see from a flashlight. Like a triangle with edges.

Bring it close to a gravitational field, and like a car going around a curve, the outside goes faster and further than the inside to keep up.

Regards
DL
No, it's not like that at all. A car's wheels are attached to the car. The photos of a beam of light from a flashlight are not attached to each other. When gravity bends light, it bends all of the photons in proportion to the distance they are from the source of the gravity e.g. a black hole. How much each photon is affected by the gravity depends on how close it is to the source of the gravity. The speed of light is not altered when gravity bends light. The universe expands at speeds greater than the speed of light. Electromagnetic waves are fast but they are not the fastest thing in existence. The light that we can see with our eyes is a small segment of the electromagnetic spectrum.

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