Crop Circles

[Elanor]

{These posts have been split off from a thread in Reception - admin}


Scientific evidence for crop circles includes:
-stalks that show the results of extreme heat at the point where they are bent, steam having built up and escaped through holes in the nodule only, without burning
-that stalks in some formations are bent without breaking, where if a person were to apply force to them, they would inded break.
-levels of magnetism and radiation measured within some of the formations
-audible sounds recorded from some of them
-sickness in animals who enter some of them, and also avoid them
-affected corn growing better than unaffected corn, where corn bent over by man would break and die, affected corn in some formations continues to grow and thrive
-certain formations created within a very small window of oportunity between witnesses. Formations too large and complex to have been created by man in such a small amount of time. SOme formations having floors that are "woven" in a way that would take a person many hours. Even the famous "Team Satan" hoaxers admitt they don't know how some of them could be pulled off. (not scientific evidence that last one, but valid information anyway)

You'll notice I say, some, of them. The crop circle researchers have determined that only a small percentage of formations are not explainable as hoaxes, or in other words, "genuine", which means, yet to be explained.

Even without knowing how they get there, they are still beautiful, thought provoking and insightful.

There's a difference between replies dissagreeing with the poster, and being insulting or rude. The only people who have been insulting to me on the church forum were evangelicals, telling me I was going to hell and that crap. I just ignore them. It was only the video you sent that was insulting though, not your own words. Yes I supose I am sensitive. I'm not tough and excited by heated debate. I was hoping to find more like minded people here, than I have found at the church site.

[getreal]

Where is the Scientific Evidence?

Scince you have a slow dial up connection, I have cut and pasted the Wiki definition'

Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis[citation needed]. Such evidence is expected to be empirical and properly documented in accordance with scientific method such as is applicable to the particular field of inquiry[citation needed]. Standards for evidence may vary according to whether the field of inquiry is among the natural sciences or social sciences[citation needed].

You have not provided me with any scientific evidence. Where are the sources of your information?
Your profile says you are interested in anthropology and theoretical physics. You must be aware of the standard of evidence required to support what you are saying.

Even without knowing how they get there, they are still beautiful, thought provoking and insightful

What is "thought provoking" about them? They are patterns in fields made by hoaxers.

[Hundovir]

Scientific evidence for crop circles includes:
-stalks that show the results of extreme heat at the point where they are bent, steam having built up and escaped through holes in the nodule only, without burning
-that stalks in some formations are bent without breaking, where if a person were to apply force to them, they would inded break.
-levels of magnetism and radiation measured within some of the formations
-audible sounds recorded from some of them
-sickness in animals who enter some of them, and also avoid them
-affected corn growing better than unaffected corn, where corn bent over by man would break and die, affected corn in some formations continues to grow and thrive
-certain formations created within a very small window of oportunity between witnesses. Formations too large and complex to have been created by man in such a small amount of time. SOme formations having floors that are "woven" in a way that would take a person many hours.

As it stands, this is just "hearsay" and can be dismissed as such - references please.

Edit: to dimiss this, in its present form, as "hearsay" is not the same as being closed-minded.

Edit2:

Hundovir, I don't mind if you correct my spelling when you find it, so long as it is not meant as ridicule. It's really a little thing. Which is probly why I spell the odd thing wrong in the first place! Isn't the intent of what's being said more important?

Are you ridiculing my manhood?

[Alan H]

Scientific evidence for crop circles includes:
-stalks that show the results of extreme heat at the point where they are bent, steam having built up and escaped through holes in the nodule only, without burning
-that stalks in some formations are bent without breaking, where if a person were to apply force to them, they would inded break.
-levels of magnetism and radiation measured within some of the formations
-audible sounds recorded from some of them
-sickness in animals who enter some of them, and also avoid them
-affected corn growing better than unaffected corn, where corn bent over by man would break and die, affected corn in some formations continues to grow and thrive
-certain formations created within a very small window of oportunity between witnesses. Formations too large and complex to have been created by man in such a small amount of time. SOme formations having floors that are "woven" in a way that would take a person many hours. Even the famous "Team Satan" hoaxers admitt they don't know how some of them could be pulled off. (not scientific evidence that last one, but valid information anyway)

You'll notice I say, some, of them. The crop circle researchers have determined that only a small percentage of formations are not explainable as hoaxes, or in other words, "genuine", which means, yet to be explained.

I have only ever seen photographs and drawings of crop circles, but I have no doubt they are real, because I have been given no reason not to think they have existed.

However, the makers of such things is a different matter. I have not seen the evidence you talk of, but, to be persuaded by that as evidence of non-human manufacture, the evidence would have to be pretty overwhelming! The way to look at it is to ask what is the options are: in this case, either they are made my humans or they are made by some unidentified extraterrestial aliens. Now, because there are two options (can anyone think of any others?) does not mean that the probability of either is 50%. Indeed, it seems to me that the probability of them being made by humans is as near approaching 100% as I can imagine. This matches up with the probability that the readings you mention are either wishful thinking on behalf of those who want to believe or explainable natural phenonema. These seem infinitely more plausible than the hypothesis that an unknown extraterrestial did it.

Now, if they had left a spaceship behind...

[getreal]

Sorry, I must apologise, Elanor.
Alan said:

I have only ever seen photographs and drawings of crop circles, but I have no doubt they are real, because I have been given no reason not to think they have existed.

and I agree. I have also seen them from the air when flying up (or was it down) to bristol...or it could have been Southampton. Either way, I do not reject the claim that they exist.


But they are not made by aliens.

[Elanor]

I didn't realize you were looking for references. I thought a simple list of what I have learned was adquate. I get my information from the book: "Secrets in the fields" by Freddy Silva, the documentary "Star Dreams" (don't watch it you'll hate it, I find it increacingly irksome too) and another book I can't remember the title of that I had out the library. Not very impressive references perhaps. I don't know where to find the documentation from the guys in white lab coats though I'm sure there is some. I can't recall the names of the institutes of study where research was done, or any titles of research projects, or if the government has provided any funding for the research. I'm happy with what I've learned without all the specs written down, but if you want to go find them, I'm sure they can be found. If I get round to it, I might come back with some.

I would have thought though, that what I have listed would pique your interest enough, to go look for this data, instead of brushing it aside.

Personally I don't believe they are made by aliens. I lean towards the explanation of some sort of remote human creation, either knowingly or unknowingly, for the small percentage of them that are unexplained. ANd the rest (the great majority) are done on site in very mundane ways. Crop circle researchers have shown this. Did you know that they have been around since the 20's, and there are even references to them hundreds of years ago?

What is thought provoking is the shapes themselves and what they represent: pi, the golden ratio, dimentional space, the fractals, the madelbrot set, geometry, mathematics and harmonics, hoaxed or not.

Hundovir...good manhood joke. ; )

[Alan C.]

From "secrets in the fields"

Around 1980 serious attention was finally given to the phenomenon, primarily in southern England, where 90% of designs are reported. They appeared primarily as simple circles, yet by the late 1980s they had developed into pictograms, not unlike the petroglyphs found at sacred sites. After 1990 the designs developed exponentially in complexity, and today it is not unusual to come across crop glyphs mimicking computer fractals and elements expressing fourth dimensional processes in quantum physics.

Hmm............Can't help but notice the complexity of the crop circles has advanced at the same rate as computer technology, coincidence?
A look at Freddy Silva's web page doesn't add much credence to his theory on crop circles.

Our line up for Aztec UFO 2009 Symposium is going to be very exciting.
Our topic this year is PREPARE FOR CONTACT - THEY'RE HERE!

Our confirmed Speakers for March 27-28, 2009 will be:

Dr. Michael Salla
David Hatcher Childress
Victoria Liljenquist
Niara Isley
Norio Hayakawa
AND a Panel of locals who have experienced close encounters
with UFOs and Aliens.

[Alan H]

Personally I don't believe they are made by aliens. I lean towards the explanation of some sort of remote human creation, either knowingly or unknowingly, for the small percentage of them that are unexplained. ANd the rest (the great majority) are done on site in very mundane ways. Crop circle researchers have shown this. Did you know that they have been around since the 20's, and there are even references to them hundreds of years ago?

The default position has to be that they were created by ordinary humans, but I don't know what you are suggesting when you say 'remote human creation': all I can think of is you mean that it was created by some method not involving people roaming the field with ropes and other paraphernalia, either consciously or subconsciously. Because I'm not aware of any scientific evidence whatsoever that any such thing is even remotely possible, I would have to discount that [---][/---] unless someone can provide good evidence to back up any such claim. Saying that some of them are 'unexplained' just doesn't cut it. Is that saying that they were beyond human creation? If that was the case, I'm sure we would all have heard about it because it would have been a momentous discovery and I certainly would like to see what pattern could not have been created by humans. However, I just cannot imagine any patter in a field of wheat that could not have been produced by non-supernatural human effort.

What is thought provoking is the shapes themselves and what they represent: pi, the golden ratio, dimentional space, the fractals, the madelbrot set, geometry, mathematics and harmonics, hoaxed or not.

In a field of wheat, I doubt there could have been any accuracy to the approximation of the value of pi or the golden ratio. In fact, the golden ratio already comes up in nature in plants, etc without any unknown intervention. It would be possible to have a crop circle that was no more than a circle. That would inherently have the value of pi built in to it: the ratio of the circumference to its diameter. But that proves absolutely nothing.

What do you mean by 'dimensional space' and how would a crop pattern represent it? It must be a tautology to say that the crop patterns are geometric: they are not really that complex and even a straight line is 'geometric'.

They are made by humans, knowingly.

[getreal]

Elanor said:

I would have thought though, that what I have listed would pique your interest enough, to go look for this data, instead of brushing it aside.

It is not up to me to disprove what you are proposing. It is your responsibility to provide scientific evidence to support your case.

Exraordinary claims....and all that.

[Hundovir]

I didn't realize you were looking for references. I thought a simple list of what I have learned was adquate.

I find that one has to work a bit harder than that on this forum!

I get my information from the book: "Secrets in the fields" by Freddy Silva, the documentary "Star Dreams" (don't watch it you'll hate it, I find it increacingly irksome too) and another book I can't remember the title of that I had out the library.

Ok, thanks - now I can start to investigate your evidence.

I don't know where to find the documentation from the guys in white lab coats though I'm sure there is some.

I'm interested to know why you think there is something strange (paranormal? unknown to contemporary science? involving "psi"?) about crop circles on the basis of 2 books and an "irksome" documentary. The "documentation from the guys in white lab coats" is what I would call "evidence". And you're "sure" there is some. Well, I'm afraid your sureness is not enough to convince me.

I'm happy with what I've learned without all the specs written down, but if you want to go find them, I'm sure they can be found.

Clearly, I'm more sceptical than you.

I would have thought though, that what I have listed would pique your interest enough, to go look for this data, instead of brushing it aside.

Why? People claim to have seen the Virgin Mary, that praying to Jesus results in miracles, that diseases can be cured with sugar pills that aren't just placebos, that they've been abducted by aliens... etc. etc. etc. I don't usually go looking for all the data every time someone makes those claims either.

I lean towards the explanation of some sort of remote human creation, either knowingly or unknowingly, for the small percentage of them that are unexplained.

Some sort of "psi" ability? There is no reliable evidence for the existence of such powers, and I doubt (although I could be wrong) that crop-circles will turn out to be that evidence. Even though I could be wrong, it doesn't make sense to me to abandon my scepticism about these claims. Just as it doesn't make sense to me to pray for salvation - "just in case", you never know, it might be true.

Hundovir...good manhood joke. ; )

I thank you!!!

[Hundovir]

Update:

I've just ploughed through (ahahaha!) Silva's website - Crop Circle Secrets.

Some initial observations:

From the home page

Crop circles are scientifically proven to be manifestations of energy under intelligent guidance.

I'm not sure how one can "scientifically prove" that something is under "intelligent guidance".

Crop circles are organized harmonic forms of energy comprised of light, sound and magnetism which physically manifest as geometric patterns when they interact with our physical world.

I'm not sure what light, sound and magnetism are if they are not physical things. As they are physical things already, it is silly to speak about "when they interact with our physical world."

On the page http://www.cropcirclesecrets.org/education.html (education?) Silva writes about the two "hoaxers" Doug and Dave and claims that they later "recanted" . He gives no reference, altough there is a poor quality picture of a page from "The Sunday People" - a tabloid, low brow British newspaper - not a publication I would regard as reliable.

From the The Biophysics of Crop Circles page.

In 1988 Andrews and Delgado sent plant samples from crop circles, together with controls, to Signalysis laboratory in Stroud, England. The samples were processed by Kenneth and Rosemary Spelman in accordance with a procedure approved in the German Government's "Pharmacopoeia for Homeopathy" for spagyric preparations- a process normally used in the diagnosis of human blood samples.

"Pharmacopoeia for Homeopathy"? Alarm bells!

The following paragraphs, whilst referring to various "results of research" contains no references whatsoever. This is enough to arouse suspicion.

The work of W. C. Levengood is mentioned and he is described as a "respected biophysicist."

The Committe for Skeptical Enquiry website has this to say on a page devoted to Levengood:

Until his work is independently replicated by qualified scientists doing "double-blind" studies and otherwise following stringent scientific protocols, there seems no need to take seriously the many dubious claims that Levengood makes, including his similar ones involving plants at alleged "cattle mutilation" sites.

All this is already enough for me to decide that investigating the various crop-circle claims is likely to be a waste of my time and energy. However, I shall do some more digging up over the weekend.

[getreal]

You must have way too much time on your hands, Hundovir

[Hundovir]

You must have way too much time on your hands, Hundovir

Hmmm. I've wondered about that myself. Rather than "too much time" I think it's more a case of "Billy no-mates" who doesn't have much money to socialise and currently lives with his elderly parents and his insulin dependent diabetic cat.

However: today I let out, fed, put fly-fringes on and rubbed fly-cream onto horses, ponies and donkies;
exercized and entertained two Dobermans;
mucked out stables and poo-picked fields;
went to a farm merchants to get layers pellets and mixed corn;
fed and watered numerous poultry and cats;
continued to pump out a pond that is now "de-commisioned";
collected damsons and blackberries;
rode my motorcycle to and from work
amongst other things.

On the other hand: I didn't give any money to charity!

[getreal]

rubbed fly-cream onto horses, ponies and donkies;

Is this a new type of equine, perchance?

[Hundovir]

rubbed fly-cream onto horses, ponies and donkies;

Is this a new type of equine, perchance?

Sorry, missed the capitalisation and the space:

Of course, it should have been "Don Kies".

And let me tell you - rubbing fly-cream onto a mafia godfather is not something you want to do without giving it proper care and attention.

[Fia]

exercized and entertained two Dobermans

As someone who is nervous of dogs the thought crossed my mind how you would exercise and entertain 2 dobermans... Introduce them to some fit clergy perhaps?

Back on topic, I wish I had been on a crop circle making group. It seems such a creative endeavour, with all the elements to cohese a group: purpose, time, planning and execution, a large element of the clandestine, and what huge fun to see how other some humans just miss the obvious...

[Hundovir]

As someone who is nervous of dogs

Oh! I always think this is such a shame. Not your fault of course, but I hope you can get properly introduced one day.

Back on topic, I wish I had been on a crop circle making group. It seems such a creative endeavour, with all the elements to cohese a group: purpose, time, planning and execution, a large element of the clandestine, and what huge fun to see how other some humans just miss the obvious...

Yeah, a great way of spending a nice summer night, with plenty of cider to lubricate. it would be great fun.

[Lifelinking]

Then of course, there are those mysterious crap circles...

[Hundovir]

[Lifelinking]

Hence the expression, "if I see one more alien I am going to shit a crap circle"